SCENAR and the Pathology of a Scam
While going about my business the other day, I came across SCENAR in a facebook entry by a member of the family, who claimed that after a SCENAR therapy treatment their shoulder was now back to normal.
Having been on the receiving end of therapies for a lot of sporting injuries over many years, I was surprised not to have heard of this one, so I once again enrolled into the University of Google, the institution in which everyone is an expert, or so they think.
So, I now know that SCENAR basically involves applying a small current that gives a tingling sensation in muscles. That’s it. While this sort of thing has been done for years by physiotherapists to assist with soft tissue injuries, this version is just a cheap and nasty copy. The most common devices are like a mobile phone, and give out a tiny tingle, which couldn’t possibly have any real effect on body tissue. I’ve also found out that it was developed for the Russian space program. Now I’m really impressed.
And no, I’m not going to take you on an Elmore-esque adventure. Although it’s tempting, it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. Another blogger summarised it pretty well here.
Suffice to say that this has all the same hallmarks as Elmore; in fact the techniques are almost identical. Rather than do another expose on this shifty therapy, let’s take a look at the common traits of these scams.
1. Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Are you impressed? Translated, this most common logical fallacy means ‘after this, therefore because of this’, and is common when correlation is confused with causation. In this case, someone uses SCENAR on their shoulder, which then gets better, and they assume it’s the SCENAR. All they can really say is that the improvement happened after the SCENAR, not because of it. For SCENAR, we could substitute Elmore Oil, laser hair growth therapy, reiki, chiropractic, homeopathic remedies, The Secret, etc etc – you get the idea. Typically, whatever the ailment, it heals itself, or else goes through natural cycles – as in the case of, say, hair loss and cancer progression.
2. Extraordinary claims – low evidence
We’ve talked about this before, but it’s all too common. On one hand, the claims being made are breath-taking. Look at this for instance. Don’t be over-whelmed by this table – just look at the range of ailments, and the % cured column. Pretty impressive right? If this is correct, then we really don’t need doctors any more, do we? I wonder why this societal shift hasn’t happened yet? Why are we still training doctors, rather than pumping out SCENAR device operators?
On the other hand, the evidence to support these grandiose claims is pitiful. There’s an impressive list of references here, but inspection reveals that really only one ‘trial’ of any note has been done, with the conclusion that:
“Due to the modest sample size and restricted cohort characteristics,future larger and more comprehensive trials are required to better evaluate the potential efficacy of the ENAR device in a more widely distributed sample population”
And that’s it. That’s the evidence, unless you include countless testimonials. Elmore anyone?
This leads on to our third trait.
3. The Research Bypass
See my recent blog on this one. Basically, proponents do some dodgy preliminary trials, which inevitably show a benefit due to either the placebo effect or cherry picking of data, and then publish, with no intention of every doing proper trials. This way, they can cite ‘clinical trials’, and have a nice, official-looking footnote.
4. It’s gotta be old or foreign
Like all good alternative therapies, religions and fairy tales, they are represented as being one or both of old, and foreign. Notice that any reference to something being ‘new’ or ‘locally invented’ is no-no. Having both of these attributes would seem to be the kiss of death. There are favourites – ancient chinese/oriental seems to be popular, (it scores on both attributes), while SCENAR is exotically Russian. Chiropractic and Homeopathy are both 19th century. Ear candling is allegedly a practice of the Hopi tribe of native Americans. I could go on.
5. Adopted by dubious professions
It seems that bogus therapies are typically favoured by those professions which have no real basis to them – chiropractic being a good example. They seem to adopt various practices to complement whatever it is that they learn in university – applied kinesiology, SCENAR, manipulation of energy fields, homeopathy and so on. I wonder whether it’s because the practitioners are struggling to sell whatever they do, so latch onto whatever seems good at the time, to increase their perceived expertise?
6. A rap on the knuckles
Finally, and most desirably, many bogus therapies will also have official sanctions applied for making misleading claims, but which, for some strange reason, do not make it into the public arena. This is more common than you think, thanks to the good work of the likes of Loretta Marron (the Jelly Bean lady), and Dr. Michael Vagg. For example, if you go here and type in SCENAR, you’ll get a page of recent orders against companies and individuals making claims of efficacy. While I’ve had a crack at the TGA recently, Loretta and Mick have kept them on their toes, by filing continuous complaints and ensuring that they are followed through.
Armed with this pathology of a scam, you are now in a position to spot one a mile away – so no more excuses!
rationalbrain 
January 28, 2016 at 7:02 pm
Hi RB
We are being warned all the time to reduce the amount of electromagnetic influence our bodies absorb, hence the shielding of microwave ovens and t he concern over the proliferation of NBN towers in Australia. Also I note earlier in your blog there was the mention of this device emitting 50hz which we are told to reduce our exposure to. If this machine can produce enough energy to make muscles spasm I would not put it near my body however nice it might feel for a while. There is no way this device will cure the pain from my crushed spinal cord and vertebrae rubbing together due to no disc left. This is fixed by real science, not by fairies.
Thank you for your blog
Ritchie
January 28, 2016 at 8:07 pm
Hi Ritchie
In scenar’s defence(not like me I know), I wouldn’t be worried about anything other than some mild warming. That’s been the whole issue – there’s not enough output to do anything much, let alone cure disease or major structural issues like yours.
rb.
August 30, 2022 at 5:46 pm
it’s just a lazy device. you can get a warming sensation from getting a massage but now this cuts out the masseuse so you can have the person put a machine on you and walk out for a 1 hour tea break or sucker more zombies in.
March 13, 2016 at 3:28 am
What is real science according you: Pharma Poisons, mutilation procedures, Nerve Blocking by Steroids and dangerous toxic pain killers? You called that Science? I am A Bio-medical Consultant, with Chronic back pain and a Neck Surgery. Scenar technology make miracles on my pain. My wife is a Doctor, and also Phd in Medical Sciences, ask her about the Scenar and her experience with her patients.
March 13, 2016 at 7:06 pm
Real science is not taking someone’s word for it.
If my evidence is your wife’s say-so, I’m on thin ice.
No, real science involves thorough testing to demonstrate efficacy, and scenar has had bugger all.
We are just left with lame anecdotes, and having a go at science.
And if you are so anti-science, why do you quote your qualifications, and those of your wife, at me? Surely they are worthless according to you.
February 16, 2018 at 11:17 am
Sorry – but you’re obviously not a scientist if you can ask such questions. Science is repeatable, predictable, and if it’s medical science, its proven via double blind placebo trial.
I’ll tell you what science isn’t too: it isn’t people claiming to be scientists, and demanding that we just believe their anecdote; it isn’t charlatans selling fraudulent horse; it isn’t charlatans using trigger terms life “Pharma Poisons”. That’s just the big theft by con artists scamming the vulnerable.
If Scenar works, why won’t they publish the trials they claim prove their product works? Why so shy Scenar? Why so shy Irina? Surely it isn’t yet another scam on the gullible? Surely not?
Publish or shut up. I’m calling yet another fraud.
March 27, 2016 at 4:13 am
You poor thing ! Your mind is sealed forever ,what a shame! You obviously have never heard of a Rife machine , and the fact that , “the body Electric ” (Robert Beck” ) and the body is 80 % water ! Have you read Lakhovski! What’s the matter with you ? You obviously could use a little electrotherapy yourself !Are you not aware that scientists are using 528 frequency to repair DNA? There was a time when all hospitals were equipped with Rife machines till Big Pharma took control ! This site is a waste of time , nothing rational about your brain ,(if you have one !)
March 27, 2016 at 8:57 am
Thankyou for the personal attack, but spouting a whole bunch of phrases in quotes and with exclamation marks does not constitute evidence.
I had never heard of a Rife machine, but now that I’ve read about it, it’s just another piece of junk for the gullibles to froth over. Obviously you don’t agree with its portrayal in Wikipedia. Everything is a conspiracy, right? And how lucky we are that perceptive types like you, who are on the inside, are there to protect us.
I could go on – the body is 80% water – so what? How does that lead to disease being cured by Scenar? Show me the evidence, which still no-one has done.
And scientists don’t use ‘frequencies’ – frequency is a property, not some magical agent that is applied.
You should know that anyone with any science background (or just moderately well read) looks on the words you wrote and thinks ‘yep, word salad’. It’s incoherent.
So spare me the conspiracy theories (fyi – ‘big pharma’ is making billions by bilking the gullibles for scenar, homeopathy, naturopathy etc etc – they are hardly the establishment).
If this site is a waste of time, then go do something more productive, like, oh, read a book? A science book, not a book by some kook throwing techno-babble around.
But thanks for the character assessment – you types can always be counted on for that.
August 7, 2017 at 5:35 pm
Good one. I hate people who critise something they don’t have a clue about. You put it correct way and I don’t think they have a brain!! Just a BIG MOUTH!!!!!!
August 8, 2017 at 10:25 am
If you are saying I have a big mouth (not sure I understood your comment), then enlighten me. Tell me what I don’t have a clue about.
But please, give me some decent evidence, not more drivel about frequencies and big pharma and other conspiracy theories.
September 16, 2017 at 4:15 am
Gail, you are absolutely right. I use all the systems mentioned with great success. I have just bought a SCENAR device so can not say yet much about it. All the systems utilize scalar waves which a not electromagnetic. I am a FInstP but the full Maxwell’s equations were not taught at Cambridge when I graduated in 1970s nor are they now.g The scalar potentials come out of the full equations when expressed as quaterneum format. THAT IS WHY RATIONAL BRAIN KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT IT?
September 16, 2017 at 9:44 am
Oh my.
Roger, you’ve just given a beautiful example of techno-babble! FInstP indeed!
For those impressed by Roger’s somewhat confused paragraph, you should look up ‘scalar waves’ in wikipedia. They are bullshit, to use another technical term.
Not electromagnetic… yeah, right.
Suffice to say when you are looking for an explanation for a non-existent effect, then definitely go outside of physics as we know it. Quantum effects are just so noughties, aren’t they?
Just to reinforce for other readers that Roger is talking out of his arse, then also look up ‘quaterneum’ – of course he meant quaternion, just a slip twixt google and keyboard, or perhaps a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
So let’s summarise his proposition – these piss-weak devices, which maybe cost tens of dollars (or hundreds if you’re really gullible), can summon up forces which have never been measured before, do not obey the laws of physics, and somehow come out of a secret formulation of Maxwell’s equations, right? And they cure disease! Huzzah!
OK, Roger, well I hope you are going to present a paper on this miraculous effect to your peers at the Institute of Physics, I’d be interested in their response. You know, peer review. Heard of it?
Oh, and please follow up your excellent comment with the many randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies which put these wonderful effects beyond any doubt (no Russian websites will be accepted!). I’ll be waiting with scalar breath.
r.
February 16, 2018 at 11:19 am
But all that’s being asked for is some evidence. Why so hostile to that demand? Surely its reasonable? If a demand for evidence gets such hostility, it;s reasonable to be sceptical, right? But I do have some lovely snake oil for sale if you’d like to buy some?
March 31, 2016 at 11:26 pm
A few years back an acquaintance saw me moving and stretching my shoulder as I was in obvious pain (I got shoulder/neck pains regularly so was used to them) and summoned me over and used a scenar on me. I had no idea what it was at the time, only that it worked completely! And no, not post hoc ergo propter hoc, it actually worked, normally I’d be in pain for days and that day it disappeared in less than an hour. I had no expectations, I’m a skeptic and understand your skepticism but just because there’s a lot of rubbish (like cheap and nasty copies, or charlatans selling them) doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. I’d dig deeper if I were you.
April 1, 2016 at 10:31 am
Firstly, I’m glad your shoulder was fixed.
Secondly, ‘dig deeper’ where exactly? I have checked the usual journals, and all you get on the internet are sales and marketing sites, claiming cures of all sorts of things, including disease conditions, not just sore shoulders.
I have been asking proponents for the evidence (in the form of good quality studies – double blind, placebo-controlled) that these things cure anything but all I hear are anecdotes – and anyone can make up an anecdote. In your case, I accept that there may have been some pain relief from the instrument (I’ve have acknowledged this many times before), but how do you know the pain would not have disappeared in a hour anyway? Maybe the strain wasn’t as severe as you thought. I’m not doubting you, but just saying that this what studies do – they compare doing nothing with the modality in question, and hence doesn’t rely on our memory, or the subjective assessment of pain.
I look forward to the digging you have done.
May 29, 2017 at 10:46 pm
I agree, there is a lot of rubbish out there and skepticism is probably an appropriate response. I have come across Scenar and the related treatment Cosmodic. I was doubtful at first, as I am generally wary of alternative treatments, I did read up on the method and brought several devices.
Here is my ‘warts and all’ account: I believe Scenar can be effective but it is difficult to use. I have been on a course and have treated various ailments fairly successfully both on myself and other people with the home device. These range from autoimmune problems, sports injury, and cold and flu. Also, it works well for food poisoning or gastric problems.
On the negative side, if it is not used properly it probably will have little effect. Also, even if used properly, the device can can cause a ‘healing crisis’ where the symptoms worsen for up to 48 hours which could be off-putting. Extended use can also cause tiredness. I think if a person is tired and physically depleted, the Scenar is much less effective or may not work at all.
The Denas /Diadens devices claim to be similar technology- I tried these and didn’t find them effective. This device got thrown away.
The Cosmodic (Let medic) devices are much easier to use (more or less straight out of the box) treat a wider range of conditions, promote full recovery for chronic conditions, and avoid the tiredness and healing crisis. They are also significanty more expensive. The most expensive LET devices have both Scenar and Cosmodic functions. I generally prefer the Cosmodic device and treatment method and hardly use the other and would tend to recommend this over the traditional Scenar. However, the effect is slower, and it probably doesn’t work as well for acute conditions (e.g. recent sprains).
In summary, I’d recommend Scenar together with a trained therapist or attending a training course, but otherwise not. I’d recommend Scenar Cosmodic without training. For neurological conditions, Cosmodic is probably the only treatment which works.
I hope this helps someone.
February 16, 2018 at 11:37 am
But its an obvious fraud – so why would you recommend it? That’s really pretty bad behaviour. Decent people do not recommend frauds because they are too lay to educate themselves about what constitutes evidence.
Try harder. And be a better person.
May 22, 2020 at 7:55 am
For what it’s worth, I suffered from chronic achilles tendonitis for 3 years. Tried all of the conventional therapies to no avail. On a lark I went to an acupuncturist and was treated with a combination of needles and scenar. After only three treatments, the condition was completely cured. It has been pain free for over a year now. I realize this is anecdotal, but hey, what do I know.
September 18, 2016 at 9:35 am
Hi rational brain.
You have a lot of clues on this thread from peoples reaction to you that your attitude may be coming from a childhood of pain, where the rational replaced nurture and love. I am guessing, and must say here that if I i am right, I can relate to you a bit, as my poor upbringing dictates much of how I relate to people :-/.
I found this very interesting thread because i am in 2 minds. I have no personal experience of scenar but i saw someone i knew using one 10 years ago, and she said she used it a lot and said it was brilliant. Now this would not have piqued my interest, except i knew her husband, through a mutual friend. Her husband won an Olympic gold medal in athletics, and she was (and still is as far as I know) training international athletes and international sports teams.
The price of scenar machines and the lack of widespread usage or acceptance of them has deterred me til now. I am still sceptical. Interestingly your article and the comments have given me the best new rational evidence I have found that they do indeed work & I should go and buy one!
I like you consider myself to be rational, and dislike unrational, not thought through attitudes. I also question other people’s loose rationality.
As a rational man I’m sure you know what rational means. So I will explain it to everyone else. Rational has to be by definition the use of logic. There are only 2 types of logic, inductive and deductive. (A 3rd type, called mu logic has been posited from observing babies, which I find fascinating).
Inductive logic is where you make a theory then observe real life to see if it seems to fit.
Deductive logic is where you observe real life then make a theory that seems to fit.
So rationality is inductive or deductive theories.
A fascinating absolute with logic is that its impossible to prove anything. It may however be possible to disprove some theories.
So to throw the “you still haven’t proven anything” line at people is always true for all people all the time, from a rational point of view.
Einstein himself got very upset with people who did not understand the above about rationality, and called people who did not understand this basis for rationality, not true scientists.
The reason why I am so swayed by the comments on this thread is that when taken at face value, many very credible people have commented that they have partaken in true scientific endeavor, and used good logic to come to the conclusion that scenar worked for them. Some with very severe problems. Interestingly, there are just a few who have done the science, and rationalised that it didn’t work for them.
So as a reasonable man, I have to be aware of this good science. Of course like all scientific logical experiments, one has controls, and the reliability of the controls are always unknown to the researcher. One of my controls in viewing these experiments is that the commenters are all rational people of good standing, who have been totally honest when describing their experience. So it is good for me to be aware of this, and try and load it with the logical science I have done in the past that has shown me that not everyone is honest all the time 🙂 now, how many, if any, have been dishonest is outside my controls, so is completely unknown and unknowable in my rational experiment… Isn’t being rational fun!
Now, there are 2 subjects you have mentioned that I know something about. The 1st is acupuncture, which I have practiced professionally for 30 years. The second is medical research, which I am a beginner in, but have studied a bit.
You have fallen foul of being irrational in your statements about acupuncture. Your irrationality is obvious, just go back to 1st principles, and you, as a rational man, will see I’m sure.
I have been conducting a rational logical experiment with acupuncture for 30 years, and have done my best to understand my experiment within the context of modern medical scientific rigor. I have gone through times thinking I help no-one above placebo. However the more data I have collected, the more the consistency of results has become clear. At present I am very satisfied that within the context of the present medical model of effacacy, acupuncture does indeed work well when administer it. Within my own need for rigor, which is far greater than that of the the modern medical model, i think, I am also satisfied. Interestingly 6 months ago I went to a conference given by 3 of the top migraine consultants in the UK. 2 of the 3 are using acupuncture personally in their hospitals to treat patients, and they told me they use it because for their patients it works. I was really pleased to meet such good rational scientists
I am not sure if you are aware of the rigor required by medical science at present. Are you aware of the 3 levels of rigor of modern medical research? Are you also aware of the amount of research that falls into each of these 3 categories. Are you aware of how many people are required to be in a trial for it to be deemed significant? Are you also aware of placebo, how much above placebo a drug has to be in efficacy, to be deemed to “work”, or for a patient to be told “this drug works for your condition”. And how side effects of drugs are treated in trials? I was shocked when I began to discover the answers to all these questions at even a basic level. If you haven’t, I would suggest as a good starting place, to read up on the research on peripheral neuropathy.
I am a believer in modern medicine and in drugs. I also know too well that prescribed drugs are “heavy”. They carry real risks. This is obvious, as otherwise they wouldn’t need to be prescribed. All drugs carry a mortality rate. All medical interventions carry a mortality rate. 1 in 150 breast biopsies cause a pneumothorax. If you have a suspected stroke and are admitted to hospital, the doctors can give you an injection that can save your life. But the emergency room doctor has to sweat and be ultra rational, and weigh up the evidence then make an educated guess. Why? Because he has to give the injection within 2 hours of the suspected stroke, and he knows that he will kill 1 in every 100 people he injects. Yes, the injection kills 1 in every 100. Even over the counter medicines, like asparin, have a mortality rate. I had a doctor one refuse to give me an endoscopy, as he said the risk of the procedure was greater than what it might find.
So it is very rational if you have a medical complaint to maybe seek acupuncture or homeopathy or even maybe a scenar rubdown if possible before deciding to take drugs.
Dont just believe the research you read about homeopathy or acupuncture. Investigate the context (the controls from a scientific method point of view) in which such trials are taking place. If nothing else ask yourself why there are so few trials outside China for acupuncture, when consultants at the highest level are practicing it. I know personally that some of the most influential doctors and scientists in usa have been for acupuncture and TCM for very serious diseases and consider themselves to have been cured by it.
Obviously when my partner had a suspected stroke I didn’t administer acupuncture, I rushed them to hospital. Happily they are still here! And whether they had a stroke or not is still not totally clear! Such is they the vagueness of more than we care to admit of modern medicine.
Thank you for everyone’s input here. Not totally decided re scenar, as I have a sceptical nature, and I’m not rich enough to just go and get a scenar machine to try out on my clients 🙂 I’m edging closer, though to doing some science with one..
September 18, 2016 at 11:12 am
Wow. You like to use the word ‘rational’, don’t you? Too bad you display none of it.
Firstly, regarding your first paragraph and insinuations about my childhood, you could not be more wrong, and secondly, fuck you, it’s irrelevant.
Your text is an utter mess. You go on about rationality, even providing us with definitions, and then go on to ignore them.
So, because you knew someone’s husband, who won an Olympic gold medal, all of a sudden scenar could work? Really? How many top level athletes were also doing that bogus ‘cupping’, or a few years ago, wearing those bogus rubber bracelets?
You also display a profound lack of understanding of science if you believe that commenters could in any way constitute ‘controls’ to an experiment. That fact that they are honest or not is irrelevant. Be aware that many of them are in fact not honest – they are selling a product – like those many scenar websites.
When you start going on about acupuncture, it confirms that you have no clue. Perhaps you need to spend more time on your ‘medical research’ hobby.
Your discussion about ‘heavy’ drugs is just plain dumb. So you’re saying before taking drugs, try acupuncture or homeopathy. Why? Because they have no risk? OK, but they also have no effect on anything, so why bother? Why delay treatment? I suppose it keeps quacks employed, so you’re doing a public service I guess.
And why should I not believe the research about acupuncture or homeopathy? Because you say so? Despite your claims there have been many trials of both outside of China, and time after time they have been proven to be worthless. Anyone who practices either is deluding themselves and their clients – reality has shown that over and over.
And since to you seem to be in the UK, you will no doubt be aware that the politicians have finally seen through the sham that it is homeopathic hospitals, and many other countries are also doing the same.
Unfortunately, it seems you too are selling something (‘affordableacupuncture’), and therefore are motivated to push this therapy and others like it. You are also therefore likely to ignore the pursuit of real evidence because of the inconvenient results, instead focusing on some intangible and un-measurable outcomes which have nothing to do actually addressing the original issue. Good luck with your business. I’m sure you’ll find plenty of suckers to part with their cash.
September 19, 2016 at 6:28 am
Wow, rational – when you start telling people to f..you etc, you are losing it, though i can understand people bringing up your own upbringing is also not done.
Why exactly are you keeping this thread open anyhow? Its just devolved into a nasty free for all a long time back. I used scenar or a similar device a while back & it worked great for temporary pain relief. Given what we now know of inflammation, pain pathways & how the brain tends to shut off painful muscles and existing muscle imbalances get worsened, i don’t think it unreasonable that scenar like devices can have a useful (adjunct) role in sports injuries. I think its got a great role to play in that sense alone if used with proper PT & other aids. Ultrasound, heat therapy, trigger point massage – zero effect on me.
Having said that, its completely unproven to heal severe complaints (no studies) or ailments. That part i think is fair & you have addressed that. BTW, sample studies apart, I do know of several guys whose chronic pain complaints have been addressed hugely by acupuncture. Again, sample size is limited & the exact mechanism of action – i don’t know. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that it somehow modulated or affected the fascia or specific hyper contracted points. No idea. One was a special forces guy (as hardcore as it gets) who took bullets to his pelvis & spent many years on crutches before acupuncture did make a tangible difference. At the same time, many chronic pain folks claim it didn’t do enough or anything at all. I went through some dry needling. Didn’t do much for me..so, again – not a magical answer (unfortunately!)
I do get a mail every two weeks though of some increasingly angry exchange between you & some random stranger in which you both tear strips off of each other.Over some stuff which to be honest, is not really that important in the larger scheme of things. Since all that needed to be said seems to have been said by all sides.
Just some food for thought, since being somebody in chronic pain, it really makes me wonder how & why such items are worth getting so worked about. For the record, the third time i used scenar (my device was called interex) its effects were nowhere as profound as the first time and second time. Made me reconsider relying on it as a long time solution for my needs. So caveat emptor as always.
Its not like they are inexpensive. The interex device retails for some $5000 or thereabouts!
September 19, 2016 at 4:42 pm
Firstly, please don’t think that ‘I lost it’… I very calmly, rationally and intentionally said ‘fuck you’. Seemed appropriate, since making personal assessments like the correspondent did is like reading tea leaves or predicting the future by astrology.
Secondly, I don’t leave the ‘thread open’. The blog is just here in the blogosphere, and if anyone cares to make a comment I try to respond. I think your characterisation of ‘nasty free for all’ is off the mark however – rarely have there been angry exchanges in my recollection. Different people keep reading the blog, and keep raising the same old arguments. While I get tired of the same fallacies being presented, it means one more person might learn something or avoid getting ripped off or disappointed by bogus promises.
You for example, also fall into the category of relying on anecdotes – what the treatment did or didn’t do for you, or your grandpa or your favourite sports personality or (now) a special forces guy. How many times does acupuncture have to return negative results before people finally agree that it doesn’t work? It just doesn’t, and never will, no matter how much wishful thinking we apply.
To re-iterate for the x-th time, (where x is a very large integer) some of the responses I have provided:
– yes I agree scenar could have some small pain relief effects, though there are zero decent double blind placebo-controlled tests demonstrating that. At least it’s plausible.
– there is definitely no dbpc testing for any other ailment, so all the testimonials in the world won’t sway me.
– most of your positive testimonials will be due to confirmation bias, or the natural cycles of diseases and illnesses – which seems to be reflected by your experience. Of course, you won’t hear of the negative testimonials. This applies for all of those therapies, including needles, cups, wax, water etc – anything which relies on mysterious energy lines and/or points or the removal of unspecified ‘toxins’.
– Referring me to websites which just parrot your beliefs are NOT evidence.
– I remain open to seeing some evidence in a properly conducted trial, and I urge anyone who has such evidence to educate me. Despite such urging over the years, still nothing. Ever.
However I do hope that you find some relief to your pain. I just don’t think it will come from sources which sell miracle cures which are ancient/energy-based (point or line)/toxin-removal-based/suppressed by the medical industrial complex etc.
September 21, 2016 at 4:26 am
Anecdotes are also effectively case studies when properly documented and serve a useful purpose in the absence of a long term well funded controlled trial. I dont see thst situation changing anytime with scenar. plus i have my my own interactions with these issues to compare. and as far as i can tell interex is a useful pain relief modality but not anywhere near a huge one shot answer for chrinic conditions. cant cmment on other actions or diseases.
September 21, 2016 at 9:35 am
It would be nice to think that anecdotes could add to the sum of knowledge, but generally they’re worthless. Being documented is not enough – it’s usually too late by the time you’re documenting results. It needs to be controlled for the biases of the observer, which in most cases is also the subject of the experiment.
So while a single person can give a clue on the effects of something, unless you do properly controlled tests over many subjects you have no idea of efficacy and potentially side effects.
Here’s a fictitious example. I went to Rio, felt a bit unwell afterwards, and a doctor told me I had the Zika virus. I recovered in a couple of days. All well documented, right? OK, so now I write on my blog – Zika virus is mild and safe for everyone. Obviously it’s not. You could also test it on, say, 1000 athletes from the Olympic village. All recover, right? Therefore it must be safe. But it’s not. Unless you included at least one pregnant woman and waited for the birth, you wouldn’t know it’s nasty effects. Even then, you would need many pregnant women, to know whether it affects everyone of them, or that women had some other issue. Now you’ve got serious numbers in your trial.
Ok, so scenar doesn’t have nasty side effects, other than emptying your pocket. But it’s incorrect to claim all sorts of miraculous benefits without having thorough controlled trials. What power should it have? How long should it be applied to the affected area? Can some individuals have a bad reaction to it? Now in this case we know the answer because they are just toys with insufficient power to kill a Zika mosquito, but you get the idea.
So if it relieves your pain, then great, enjoy. But don’t claim it ‘cures’ anything, and especially don’t assume that it will work for all people all the time.
February 16, 2018 at 11:20 am
That’s a huge long misdirectional post to avoid providing any evidence. How about some?
September 19, 2016 at 6:34 am
Those russian links are interesting though. Limited sample sizes..and i wonder if multimodal therapies were used.. how do you know for sure which worked?
October 24, 2016 at 5:14 pm
After experience a chronic and intense pain in my shoulder for nine months and with the problem becoming progressively worse, I deigned to visit a physiotherapist for the first time.
The physio initially treated my shoulder with a small device that resembled a remote control. The sensation generated by the device could easily be imagined as multiple deep seated pin pricks. After a couple of minutes of treatment the intense pain within the shoulder was substantially reduced and the joint became significantly more mobile.
When asked about the device the physio conceded that she had never used the device prior coming to this practice and that the mode of operation of the device eluded her, however, the device was called a Scenar.
Did Scenar work for me?
Yes.
Did Scenar fix my shoulder?
No, that took neigh on 10 weeks of concentrated therapy, including Scenar therapy at the start of the physio sessions, allied to an intense personal exercise regime. However, the Scenar provided near instant and easy pain relief allied with an increase in joint mobility that made the requisite stretching and strength training less painful and easier to undertake. The pain relief provide by the Scenar would last around two days and then wear off.
What makes you think the Scenar mumbo jumbo makes sense?
It doesn’t actually matter.
As I happily told a bunch of friendly but rather shocked professors debating ‘Global Warming’ and ‘Peak Oil’ at a dinner table, the opinion of all the esteemed scientists that has every lived and ever will live is irrelevant when compared to one experimental result (BTW the experiment says that the Peak Oil hypothesis is dead as)
The results of my experiment is that the Scenar device substantially reduced pain and increased joint mobility on a number of occasions for me.
Is your pain relief and joint mobility result driven by say suggestion?
Don’t know.
Is your favourable Scenar result translatable to the general population?
Don’t know.
February 16, 2018 at 11:23 am
“What makes you think the Scenar mumbo jumbo makes sense?
It doesn’t actually matter.”
It matters enormously. Otherwise it’s snake oil. And the Scenar sales team are clearly dodgy: the claim of proof by trials is just a lie – or they’d respond to requests to publish.
Sorry but this is a scam. You should demand evidence…not anecdote.
July 5, 2017 at 2:23 pm
Hi RationalBrain, very rational perhaps but devoid of information. That equals ignorance. You should do a little research before coming to your conclusions. Here is a page listing research papers on Scenar.
http://www.scenar.com.ru/en/wiki/all/
Several scenar devices have been approved by the FDA for pain control. They actually go way beyond pain control to regulate the healing process.
If you ever have an injury or accident and decide you would rather not be another opioid addiction casualty, look for a good scenar device. But everyone should be aware that there Are crappy copycat devices on the market. Okb Ritm and Let Medical make quality devices.
July 5, 2017 at 3:07 pm
You obviously haven’t read a fraction of this thread. If you had, you’d realise that your accusation of the lack of research is unfounded.
I’m not going to regurgitate the entirety of the arguments in the thread – please read them.
Just a couple of points:
1. The link you provided is one of many, which somehow are all Russian, and which display an appalling lack of scientific rigour. Why are they only Russian? Why are there no proper tests (double blinded, placebo controlled) reported in reputable references, or perhaps anywhere else but Russia? Instead of providing a link, which is the lazy way to make your argument, provide me some high quality studies which support the claims – which include curing diseases like diabetes etc. Pick the best example and let me know. However, I’m not expecting anything from you – because a. you won’t bother to look for anything of high quality, and b. there are no such studies to my knowledge. Despite inviting the hundreds of commenters on this thread to provide me with evidence of a good high quality study, not one person has come through with anything. Does that tell you anything?
2. I have in past conceded that the devices may provide some elementary pain relief – again, there are no decent studies, but at least there’s a plausible mechanism of action. But you would know this if you’d read the thread.
3. ‘Approved by the FDA’ does not mean that the FDA has confirmed the efficacy of the device. As you should know, it just means that the FDA is comfortable that they do no harm.
Prove me wrong. Provide the evidence of scenar curing a disease. Good luck.
February 16, 2018 at 11:30 am
So I clicked on the first 3 of the “articles” that are somewhat hilariously put up on the Scenar website you lined to, as ‘research papers’. It’s hard to know where to start with such obvious fraud. When you use the term ‘research papers’ in a medical sense, it’s accepted that this means published. Not just a word document converted to PDF. Maybe you can see the problem here.
Further, ‘research paper’ needs to mean ‘published in an accepted peer review journal’ to be worth anything at all. As opposed to ‘I just wrote it on my laptop and converted it to pdf’ – which is worth jack.
The interesting question is why you folks – so abusive of people demanding actual evidence – are so keen to believe without it! As I mentioned previously, I’ve got some lovely Snake Oil for sale if you’d like some? Very cheap.Cures all known diseases within a 6 month treatment period. Only available from me.
November 24, 2017 at 12:04 pm
Scenar only claims to help the body heal itself. The body’s healing is only as good as the person abusing their body i.e. with poor food choices, lack of vitamins/minerals and potentially using say a joint which perhaps should be immobilised. I own a Scenar for personal use and I am a Skeptic who does not like to part with money. My personal experience – when my eyes bulged painfully and Doctors were clueless TA DA Scenar fixed this peculiar (no doubt thyroid based) issue. Currently, I am successfully healing a badly damaged scaphoid using Scenar which involves small victories, patience, DMSO and comfrey. I see the need for debate but to be fair only users of Scenar should be making comment.
November 26, 2017 at 8:34 am
So you’re saying that only positive stories should be heard, is that right?
Let’s be absolutely clear – I have expressed skepticism that scenar does anything more that local warming, which may or may not have some minor tissue healing effect.
All I ask is that for any claims beyond this, evidence be presented. And by evidence, I mean something more than anecdotes like yours. If it works so well, why hasn’t someone actually done some decent testing? Surely it would be easy to do, would boost sales, have them used in hospitals, and silence the doubters like me.
But no, it continues to be an article of faith. As the previous commenter pointed out, it’s ‘faith healing’.
I will take a stab at why there is no evidence of which to speak. The file-drawer effect. Any testing which attempted will inevitably be un-supportive, and will therefore end up in the file drawer.
It’s just like homeopathy, chiropractic, acupuncture, cupping, ear-candling, {ad nauseam} – just another con to bilk the masses of their money and raise false hopes, while making them feel superior for sticking to ‘clueless doctors’.
December 24, 2017 at 8:50 pm
Propter: on account of.
December 27, 2017 at 4:52 pm
Quite right, thanks.
January 10, 2018 at 9:07 am
Scenar is magic. It really works but it is only for inteligent people, people who want to get better and put the others better. It is not comparable with other tecnology. If someone has any doubt about it test it and study to see how wonderfull it is. Science is for open mind people and inteligent as well, not for anyone.
Raquel Gregório
January 10, 2018 at 2:28 pm
Yes, well we can agree it’s magic.
You know magic is just illusion, right?
r.
January 12, 2018 at 12:56 pm
Not always, it can be understud like miracle. Ilusion is when you don’t see the true because the delirium you create on your mind feels better for any disfuncional reason. Don’t criticize what you can’t undestand. Keep your mind open and study.
January 12, 2018 at 1:08 pm
My mind is open. How many times have I asked people for evidence?
It has just got to the point where I don’t think I’ll ever see the evidence.
If you believe in miracles, then I guess scenar looks like science. But there are no miracles, just reality.
And the reality is that scenar has not been demonstrated to cure ANYTHING. I will only accept that it may provide some mild, temporary pain relief.
If you have facts to the contrary, please share them with us.
r.
February 16, 2018 at 11:32 am
Why not just also demand that it is put through a proper trial? Then we wouldn’t have to have this debate any more. And you wouldn’t have to make such hilarious claims like ‘its only for intelligent people’ (the river of irony is drowning me).
July 4, 2018 at 7:01 am
The problem is that the pharmaceutical industry have been in bed with politicians for decades and have the whole industry sewn-up with many laws and legal hurdles. This makes it extremely difficult to get anything that threatens their monopoly of drugs, surgery and other invasive [and expensive] procedures, ratified by governments for use by practitioners. This is why there are isn’t much published evidence on Scenar. There is an exceptional amount of money sloshing around in medicine for human beings [which is one reason why nobody seems to be able to say, definitively, what causes cancer, even though a cancer epidemic has been killing millions now for decades. Prevention won’t make anybody any money, but the cure does].
Mr ‘Rational’ Brain – if you want evidence, next time you have an injury why don’t you go and get some treatment. That would be case closed. That is, if you don’t already work for one of the big pharmaceutical firms, and are doing a hit-job on Scenar – something that threatens the billions of dollars the pharmaceutical industry makes every year.
I tried Scenar as I had multiple health issues over 11yrs, that the UK NHS could not fix, and I was desperate. After just 3 sessions 80% of my pain had disappeared and after a further 11 or so sessions + using my own Sanakey that I purchased, I am now living my life a normal person again.
Peace.
July 4, 2018 at 11:39 am
The fact the you believe one data point doing a subjective test would result in ‘case closed’ tells me all I need to know about your knowledge of science. Nil.
You speak with authority on politics, and also apparently are an expert on cancer research, and yet you have no understanding of how treatments are tested and proven to work, or not.
Unfortunately for your argument, scenar HAS NOT been proven to work. Far from it. The only thing it’s proven to do is make money out of wishful thinkers like you.
In typical fashion, to defend your therapy of choice, you resort to bashing me. No I don’t work for big pharma, and if you’ve read a bit more widely in this blog you’ll see that I’ve also pointed out that big pharma is reaping huge profits from other bullshit such as homeopathy.
I’m glad you feel better, but I doubt that scenar has anything to do with it. Out of interest, you said that pain has disappeared. Great. But has there been any other measurable change in your condition? Again, I doubt it. It won’t have changed any serum levels, or the function of any organs. It may have alleviated a little superficial pain as I’ve stipulated before elsewhere, but that’s it.
Peace to you too.
July 4, 2018 at 12:47 pm
When I say ‘case closed’ I mean it would be case closed ‘for you’, as in ‘you’ would know that it worked, not meaning for the wider audience. Then perhaps you could stop bashing something that you have no personal experience of.
I have since met and treated people myself with my own unit, with a ~80-90% success rate.
Chronic pain completely destroyed my life, ended my career and stopped me playing with my children – there’s nothing superficial about that.
Cheers
July 4, 2018 at 1:09 pm
I appreciate you want me to agree with you.
As I said, I have stipulated that pain relief is plausible. I don’t know how many times I’ve said that in various posts.
What I don’t buy are the claims made regarding diseases. Surely you will have seen some of the extravagant claims about curing diabetes etc etc.
I’m happy to ‘bash’ (as you put it), or be sceptical of these claims as I prefer to put it, because there is zero evidence of efficacy for those. Such extravagant claims and yet zero testing to prove. Same really goes for pain relief. Even though I accept the plausibility of pain relief I still wonder why no decent testing has been done and reported. Curious.
So pardon me for engaging my brain before accepting the majority of wild claims being made for scenar.
rb.
July 4, 2018 at 7:16 pm
You are correct, I would love you to agree with me because I know what an amazing health tool Scenar is, and the benefits it can provide to desperate people with no other way out of their health hell. It pains me [no pun intended] to see negative words written about it, that could keep people from trying it and subsequently changing their lives for the better.
I have to say, that this is the first web page I have seen with anything negative written about the technology in question. Almost everything out there on the internet, and on this blog, are people giving positive accounts of Scenar technology and it’s amazing results – I think that this has surely made you question your original opinion on the matter.
But, I suspect that you are an intelligent person that just likes a healthy debate, and quite likes being right too 🙂
It takes a special kind of person to do a 180, and publicly admit that they were wrong.
I hope it never happens, but if you ever get health issues that your preferred method of treatment cannot solve you are very welcome visit me in Basingstoke, Southern England, UK and I will treat you for free for as many sessions as it takes. Email me at oe2003uk@yahoo.co.uk
Open your mind, my friend.
It’s been fun talking to you.
Nick aka Rational Brian
July 4, 2018 at 7:48 pm
Sorry, but are you claiming that scenar can also cure disease? You didn’t address that.
And there’s plenty of scepticism regarding scenar, if you look in the right places.
To be honest it seems that the only time I’m told to ‘open my mind’ is when there is NO EVIDENCE of efficacy.
Funny about that. Show me the evidence of curing disease (or any objective improvement in health condition not subject to placebo) and I will do your 180!
But as always, I’ll bet that you can’t.
In any case, I’ll visit one day, and instead of a treatment, let’s have a beer, ok?
rb.
July 4, 2018 at 11:09 pm
You are correct – I have no personal evidence of Scenar resolving any diseases as such, ‘only’ musculoskeletal issues, ligament damage, back pain, sprains, healing burns faster, stomach ulcers, ciprofloxacin [antibiotics] poisoning, etc. But, no, not cancer, MS or AIDS.
Please clear your mind and re-read your original article, as if you are a desperately sick person with multiple health issues and unbearable pain. Now, imagine that you have just found out about Scenar – something that could change your life for very little money [the Ritm device is about £400 to buy in UK I think] – and I’m sure that you will see that your article reads very negatively.
What you have written could cause many people to shrug Scenar off as just another scam, and never discover the life-changing benefits.
I can see in your comments that you have softened in your approach over the past 15months and I think that, because of the strength and venom of your defence of your article, you are now entrenched in your argument, with your back against the wall and no way out. So you continue to defend it.
I would urge you to do the right thing, and take this article down and re-write it with a more balanced approach.
Please! Think of the children!! 🙂
Looking forward to that beer
July 4, 2018 at 11:21 pm
Burns? Ulcers? Poisoning? You must be kidding.
Also, take down the article? – do you do professional stand-up?
I’m a sceptic, not a denier. It is you that has rose-coloured glasses if you believe these low-power signal generators would have any effect on ulcers or any other serious, non-mechanical issue.
I get it – you believe it worked for you therefore you need everyone to agree.
But not everyone is quite so gullible. And that is why there is no clinical support for your claims. Not one iota.
And not matter what fancy footwork you do, until that changes, people should know.
Of course, there’s nothing stopping people from trying it if they can afford the cash – but they shouldn’t sack their oncologist just yet, ok?
Anyway, I think we’ve done this to death, and the only thing that will advance the discussion is some decent clinical evidence.
Until then, good luck in the World Cup – perhaps your guys have been using scenar to get into top shape!
Over and out.
July 7, 2018 at 2:45 am
The Scenar was developed by Russian Scientists. I believe it was developed for the purpose of helping astronauts treat themselves for various ailments while in a space capsule.
I have the good fortune of having a friend who specializes in Scenar therapy, and have had remarkable results for re-balancing my bodily energy, ( arriving in a crunched up state and leaving relaxed, pain free and balanced), reducing my back pain, and healing an injured knee that was both bruised and swollen from a fall that wouldn’t heal.
Amazing stuff.
July 7, 2018 at 11:29 am
Another testimonial, or should I say advertisement.
Why the need to capitalise ‘russian scientists’? Does it somehow make them more special?
This is an appeal to the exotic origin of the modality, and is as flimsy as claiming something as an ‘ancient chinese therapy’.
Readers beware of pumped up testimonials like this one, backed by nothing, and usually by someone seeking to make a fast buck.
Please don’t write in to chastise me again for all the usual reasons – read the original article again, and if you can come up with any evidence beyond those items listed in the ‘pathology’ then happy to hear it. Otherwise,it’s deja vu all over again. (redundancy intended).
Incidentally, this comment also includes a bonus reference to ‘balancing’ and ‘energy’, a sure sign of quackery or misguided indvidual who has no clue how the body works and is just making shit up.
So tiresome, and probably why I gave up writing new articles. It’s just a never-ending stream of crap from the conned or deluded.
July 17, 2018 at 4:52 am
What a closed minded idiot the writer of this article is. As both a practitioner and trainer and use Scenar on myself since 1999 when My husband and I bought out first Professional 97.3 Scenar. I have treated 100s of clients and have achieved successful results. The writer obviously has not done any research.
Are well the saying goes ‘There is one born every day !
July 17, 2018 at 10:14 am
Well Katannya, thanks for the abuse – always a good way to shed light on a subject, well done. Should block you.
But instead, let’s do this.
You say I’ve done no research, despite the extensive writings on this blog, citing attempts to find information.
OK, so you tell me what research you’ve done.
And when I say research, I mean clinical research, not your personal experience, because only someone with no understanding of science would expect their personal experience to be definitive. So show me your research which allows you to practice and abuse people with such confidence.
Also, can we not have any more russian websites please? That is NOT research, that is promotion.
Show me just one decent clinical study in which a disease (e.g. diabetes) has been objectively cured or even improved with scenar.
I look forward to being informed, but you know, I don’t expect to get it.
People like you never come back with anything – you’re just hot air, puffed up with indignation because others won’t believe your hand-waving.
Come one research-girl, show us what you have.
July 28, 2018 at 10:27 am
Still waiting for your research.
August 30, 2022 at 6:26 pm
😀 brilliant. i work in a sex shop and believe that the only thing that can cure dementia is a rubber insertion toy. i’ve seen this work many times. come to my shop and buy lots of stuff, i swear it works.
June 9, 2023 at 12:47 pm
Still waiting.
December 1, 2018 at 10:27 pm
Hmmm … I used to work as a Study Director for medical trials. What you don’t know is that during the development of TENS we (ie the UK) undertook a rather large study for the NHS when researchers were trying to compete with the SCENAR being developed in Russia. Of course we couldn’t get a legitimate device for a “standard”, but one appeared courtesy of some guys in a black car from our government. In double blind trials using many many subjects the results showed interesting pain control from the TENS, but those from the scenar were literally astonishing including the ability to completely cure long term pain issues and more. Because of the political pressure we only really allowed to report that the TENS worked for pain relief. Everything about the SCENAR was suppressed. I’ll leave that one with you.
December 1, 2018 at 10:35 pm
So it’s so secret we are not allowed to know about how well it works or even how it works, but we are allowed to pay money for it.
Yeah, I get it.
Sounds like a massive conspiracy theory to me, and not at all persuasive. Kool-aid anyone?
December 3, 2018 at 10:11 pm
Lets say: if you use a private research company like the one I worked for, then the data is not in the public domain and any reports are not “published”. Hey, this was the late 70’s early 80’s … GMP, GLP, and those other laboratory practice protocols we not established until the 90’s, so there were no real checks on data collection etc. You really don’t believe that private and government bodies keep secrets for their own ends do you … you’re way too trusting my friend
December 3, 2018 at 11:00 pm
So the information was suppressed not intentionally but the file-drawer effect. Fine.
My point stands – somehow all this evidence for the efficacy of scenar never quite makes it out.
People like me who continually demand it are still no closer to seeing it.
Not one person who’s written to me on this blog has offered anything other that the usual Russian websites with outlandish claims about scenar, despite me goading them!
So I accept it’s not a conspiracy. It’s simply an absence of evidence.
As I’ve said time and again, ok I’ll buy some temporary pain relief, but curing disease? Forget it.
December 15, 2018 at 10:50 pm
In your note for visitors, in the upper right hand corner of the page, you state that you encourage conversation from your readers and you tell them “not to hold back” as this blog is not meant to be a one way rant by you. However, I find that you are extremely antagonistic towards everyone that does not agree with your way of thinking. If you were truly interested in what other people have to say on the subject, wouldn’t it make more sense to let them comment without all of the snarky replies from you??? Just something to think about.
December 15, 2018 at 11:37 pm
Err, do I tell people to hold back? Or do I encourage them to provide evidence of their claims?
Most of the time I seem to be challenging people for making unfounded assertions, such as ‘Scenar cures diseases’, in the case of this thread.
When you say ‘let them comment’, do you mean just allow comments without response? Is that a conversation, or just a platform for one crazy idea or other?
No, this is not a free platform for any crazy idea.
And I think I play nice when someone actually wants to engage in a challenging conversation.
I really am interested in what people have to say, but as you can see if you read this whole thread, usually it’s anecdotal and not evidence-based. No matter how good your shoulder feels, scenar does not cure diabetes.
So if you think this is too snarky, well, perhaps it’s not for you.
February 5, 2019 at 4:28 pm
Scenar and Enar which is an Australian varient have been tested by both Macquarie university and RMITU Chronic Pain Institute here in Australia and been proven to work. I myself after suffering 20 years of chronic pain after a work accident have been treated with Inter X with amazing results. A scam it is not don’t let your ignorance blind you the fact that there is something out there that is actually helping people.
February 5, 2019 at 4:38 pm
Just to add the Macquarie University and RMITU study results are both available online along with interviews with the professor’s who conducted the studies. Just admit your wrong and end this stupid arguement your having you truly are making yourself look ignorant.
February 5, 2019 at 4:52 pm
I was going to write a nice response to you, but you’ve called me ignorant twice, so I’ve changed my mind.
Perhaps you are ignorant of the fact that I’ve conceded on MANY occasions in this thread that these devices may provide some superficial pain relief. I’m glad that they do this for you.
My problem with scenar has been the claims made that it CURES DISEASE. Sorry for shouting, but this seems to escape every grumpy scenar enthusiast.
If you have evidence to the contrary, then send it along. I’ve been saying this for years, but there’s not one skerrick of evidence so far.
In writing this, I haven’t followed up the references you have claimed, perhaps you could send me links. However, I’m immediately sceptical when browsing the RMIT chronic pain clinic, which boasts of chiropractic and acupuncture ‘professors’. Pardon me while I choke with laughter. RMIT have obviously drunk the kool-aid, along with other centres of academic excellence like Southern Cross Uni.
If the papers you cite give good results for subjective pain relief, then great, happy to accept more evidence of that. After all, it has some prior plausibility, and some potential mechanism of action. However, if they’re only ‘preliminary studies’ requiring ‘further research’ like the one I found, then forget it.
What I’m really interested in are the claims of curing disease, such as diabetes. What’s your position on this? Do you think it’s plausible? And if so, how do you think the device does that. If not, then you are just as ‘ignorant’ as I am I guess.
So before you go big-mouthing, read more widely, and try to understand why this ‘stupid’ argument is possibly not so stupid after all.
December 8, 2019 at 5:48 pm
Its so irrational reading ts reply’s a lot of blockages and needs the use of scenar
December 8, 2019 at 5:56 pm
I don’t understand your comment. Care to elaborate?
rb
January 15, 2020 at 6:37 pm
Plenty of evidence for the efficacy and benefits of Acupuncture significantly exceeding placebo but often not Anglo-American based. I’ve included just one from Google Scholar (convenient) but could quote from other sources (Cochraine Library, etc, etc).
The decision to either accept or reject non-mainstream approaches to care and treatment is invariably either or concurrently rational or irrational…the grey areas of treatment and care in life.
And before the criticism starts, as this blog is centred on treatment/care modalities, please consider just one example from medicine.
Empirical evidence supporting opioid use for palliative care pain relief is widely accepted. However, whenever prescribed, rational choices and considerations about unintended, or intended, secondary (side) effects are always in the equation e.g. respiratory suppression in metastatic lung cancer that essentially hastens someones demise versus the use of a different, possibly less effective analgesic that may or may not be so widely accepted and prescribed, yet prolongs life? In which situation are we really, doing no harm? Which is the least harmful? Is it rational to consider the non-standard use of medications? Shall we pursue new treatments (surgical interventions for example) yet to be accepted or even adequately considered by the wider fraternity? What attitude should really prevail over the sphere and concern of treating physicians and surgeons? Morality, rationality, skill (what is skill), the (wooo) art of medicine? Yes, all those and more.
If it works, consider it. Reason upon it’s benefit to you or the other person.
And finally, to me, the absolutely most interesting and puzzling effect for any chosen treatment is the Placebo Effect…Often nearly as effective as conventional treatments…And Very Very Woo indeed 🙂
Systematic Review of Episodic Migraine Prophylaxis: Efficacy of Conventional Treatments Used in Comparisons with Acupuncture
Published Online:19 Apr 2019https://doi.org/10.1089/acu.2019.1337
Conclusion:
These findings strengthened Linde et al.’s 2016 comparison of conventional treatments and acupuncture for reducing headache frequency at a 3-month follow-up. For episodic migraine prophylaxis, moderate evidence suggests that acupuncture is “at least non-inferior,” to now-proven, conventional treatments. This raises significant questions in the debate concerning claims that acupuncture is a placebo-based treatment and the prescriptions of proven conventional treatments that have similar effects as acupuncture.
January 15, 2020 at 6:58 pm
1. As we’ve said many times, placebo effect is no effect at all, except maybe for psychological. There is no measurable physiological benefit. If you disagree please cite evidence.
2. Is that study your strongest evidence of efficacy of acupuncture? If so, it’s pathetic. The conclusion is that it’s ‘not inferior’ to the other stuff, but unfortunately that other stuff requires that “evidence for the efficacy of these conventional treatments must be verified” !!! That’s hilarious. In other words, acupuncture is no better than other things that we don’t know that do any good.
I really don’t care that it’s been cited in Cochrane. I’m afraid they’ve slipped up in recent years, allowing this sort of crap to slip through the cracks.
All these years of banging on about acupuncture, homeopathy etc etc and STILL NOT ONE DECENT DOUBLE BLINDED PLACEBO CONTROLLED STUDY.
Tells you something, doesn’t it?
rb.
January 13, 2021 at 4:43 pm
On the pain claims … I found it fascinating learning about the descending modulation effect of the nervous system. almost any treatment, or affirming appraisal from the right person, can increase it’s tone if the users believe in it. this works most tangibly for pain with a centralised component. all these sham methods work just fine for descending modulation, even better if a novel sensation is associated with fixing something. scenar has less risk than surgery for persistent pain but probably comparable efficacy. a simple understanding of the neurobiological mechanisms of persistent pain and reducing the cumulative ‘credible evidence of danger’ you are absorbing has some of the best evidence at the moment for persistent pain. if therapist for pain can’t explain descending modulation to you, find one who can.
July 13, 2021 at 4:19 pm
I’m currently undertaking research by thesis in a business / economics field. I know what evidence is, I believe. My understanding of logical fallacies is, I would say, reasonable.
I was hugely skeptical of the ENAR device when proposed by someone I know well. They have, over the years, bought every alternate everything that’s come up. So, this was another one, I thought.
I agreed to let them put the small remote control looking device on my shoulder. It didn’t seem to do anything immediately on that day after the 5-10 minutes over the injury site, but I’d tried it ‘for them’. As expected, nothing happened. However, when I woke the next day it was substantially better; substantially. Not ‘fixed by a miracle’, but certainly very different from previous, much lower level of pain and much larger range of motion. It’s a very long term shoulder injury which, based on previous frozen shoulder (the other one) you wouldn’t expect much change in over time even if it were improving. I went to a physio appointment the next day. They were astounded at the difference from the week prior. These are the facts. I didn’t imagine it and I didn’t wish for it.
> Did I imagine the improvement? No.
> Did it work because I believed it would? No. I didn’t believe it would work and thought it was quackery.
> Why did it work? Absolutely no idea, but I’m happy it did as the physio had got nowhere in 12 weeks.
My position, generally, is that science still doesn’t know everything and we have many things to discover. If there wasn’t ‘more research required’ (as papers often state), there would be no research currently.
The result I got can’t be explained away by any of the points you make above.
Cheers
July 13, 2021 at 4:25 pm
I’m glad it worked for you.
I only wish that this would be replicated in large trials.
Based on your experience, it should be no problem to do this, and yet, it never has been.
Why is it so?
No-one ever answers this question, which continues to frustrate.
June 7, 2023 at 10:55 pm
Rational Brain has too much time on his or her hands!
June 8, 2023 at 2:08 am
Large trials cost a fortune, you must surely know that.
June 9, 2023 at 12:42 pm
They cost a lot because they actually reveal something, when done properly. But if you don’t particularly care for revealing the truth, then just go on someone’s say-so.