SCENAR and the Pathology of a Scam

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While going about my business the other day, I came across SCENAR in a facebook entry by a member of the family, who claimed that after a SCENAR therapy treatment their shoulder was now back to normal.

Having been on the receiving end of therapies for a lot of sporting injuries over many years, I was surprised not to have heard of this one, so I once again enrolled into the University of Google, the institution in which everyone is an expert, or so they think.

So, I now know that SCENAR basically involves applying a small current that gives a tingling sensation in muscles. That’s it. While this sort of thing has been done for years by physiotherapists to assist with soft tissue injuries, this version is just a cheap and nasty copy. The most common devices are like a mobile phone, and give out a tiny tingle, which couldn’t possibly have any real effect on body tissue. I’ve also found out that it was developed for the Russian space program. Now I’m really impressed.

And no, I’m not going to take you on an Elmore-esque adventure. Although it’s tempting, it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. Another blogger summarised it pretty well here.

Suffice to say that this has all the same hallmarks as Elmore; in fact the techniques are almost identical. Rather than do another expose on this shifty therapy, let’s take a look at the common traits of these scams.

1. Post hoc ergo propter hoc

Are you impressed? Translated, this most common logical fallacy means ‘after this, therefore because of this’, and is common when correlation is confused with causation. In this case, someone uses SCENAR on their shoulder, which then gets better, and they assume it’s the SCENAR. All they can really say is that the improvement happened after the SCENAR, not because of it. For SCENAR, we could substitute Elmore Oil, laser hair growth therapy, reiki, chiropractic, homeopathic remedies, The Secret, etc etc – you get the idea. Typically, whatever the ailment, it heals itself, or else goes through natural cycles – as in the case of, say, hair loss and cancer progression.

2. Extraordinary claims – low evidence

We’ve talked about this before, but it’s all too common. On one hand, the claims being made are breath-taking. Look at this for instance. Don’t be over-whelmed by this table – just look at the range of ailments, and the % cured column. Pretty impressive right? If this is correct, then we really don’t need doctors any more, do we? I wonder why this societal shift hasn’t happened yet? Why are we still training doctors, rather than pumping out SCENAR device operators?

On the other hand, the evidence to support these grandiose claims is pitiful. There’s an impressive list of references here, but inspection reveals that really only one ‘trial’ of any note has been done, with the conclusion that:

Due to the modest sample size and restricted cohort characteristics,future larger and more comprehensive trials are required to better evaluate the potential efficacy of the ENAR device in a more widely distributed sample population

And that’s it. That’s the evidence, unless you include countless testimonials. Elmore anyone?

This leads on to our third trait.

3. The Research Bypass

See my recent blog on this one. Basically,  proponents do some dodgy preliminary trials, which inevitably show a benefit due to either the placebo effect or cherry picking of data, and then publish, with no intention of every doing proper trials. This way, they can cite ‘clinical trials’, and have a nice, official-looking footnote.

4. It’s gotta be old or foreign

Like all good alternative therapies, religions and fairy tales, they are represented as being one or both of old, and foreign. Notice that any reference to something being ‘new’ or ‘locally invented’ is no-no. Having both of these attributes would seem to be the kiss of death. There are favourites – ancient chinese/oriental seems to be popular,  (it scores on both attributes), while SCENAR is exotically Russian. Chiropractic and Homeopathy are both 19th century. Ear candling is allegedly a practice of the Hopi tribe of native Americans. I could go on.

5. Adopted by dubious professions

It seems that bogus therapies are typically favoured by those professions which have no real basis to them – chiropractic being a good example. They seem to adopt various practices to complement whatever it is that they learn in university – applied kinesiology, SCENAR, manipulation of energy fields, homeopathy and so on. I wonder whether it’s because the practitioners are struggling to sell whatever they do, so latch onto whatever seems good at the time, to increase their perceived expertise?

6. A rap on the knuckles

Finally, and most desirably, many bogus therapies will also have official sanctions applied for making misleading claims, but which, for some strange reason, do not make it into the public arena. This is more common than you think, thanks to the good work of the likes of Loretta Marron (the Jelly Bean lady), and Dr. Michael Vagg. For example, if you go here and type in SCENAR, you’ll get a page of recent orders against companies and individuals making claims of efficacy. While I’ve had a crack at the TGA recently, Loretta and Mick have kept them on their toes, by filing continuous complaints and ensuring that they are followed through.

Armed with this pathology of a scam, you are now in a position to spot one a mile away – so no more excuses!

413 thoughts on “SCENAR and the Pathology of a Scam

    joss said:
    February 6, 2014 at 6:40 pm

    The only other reader is Todd btw

      rationalbrain responded:
      February 6, 2014 at 10:52 pm

      Oh, you ARE an expert.
      How do you know how many subscribers there are to that article? FYI there are dozens, they just don’t care to interject on such an inane conversation.
      This one article gets at least 100 hits a day.
      That’s 100 time someone gets their eyes opened that little bit more!
      Go figure.

      Em said:
      February 16, 2018 at 3:51 am

      The NIH has done numerous studies on SCENAR, also please note that the device you referenced is ENAR, not SCENAR. Here’s an excerpt from a study about the actual SCENAR device in it’s efficacy in treating Duodenal Ulcers ” It was shown that SCENAR therapy, which influences disturbed mechanisms of adaptive regulation and self-regulation, led to positive changes in most of the parameters under study. Addition of SCENAR therapy to the complex conventional pharmacotherapy fastened ulcer healing, increased the effectiveness of Helicobacter pylori eradication, and improved the condition of the gastroduodenal mucosa.” Here are the links to a few real studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16924799 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1963325/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20879466

        rationalbrain responded:
        February 16, 2018 at 4:14 am

        OK, at least you tried.

        Re #1 – I have already said I will not accept Russian studies because they are suspect. The proliferation of Russian sites making wild claims about curing all sorts of diseases raises all sorts of red flags for me. Please look back through my comments, and you’ll see that I’ve been consistent about this. As a result I discount this reference. (Not to mentioned the shit translation: ‘fastened ulcer healing’ – really? How hilarious).
        Re #2 – I have on numerous occasions also stipulated that the device may provide some mild pain relief, which is all this is. In addition, there are only 3 subjects, and does not appear to be blinded, so this evidence is also pretty weak.
        Re #3 – Again, modest pain relief is acknowledged, but even they concede the study is small and more testing is required: “modest sample size and restricted cohort”. It’s preliminary trial, and not double blinded. But worse still is that the study is published not in a reputable journal, but in Chiropractic and Osteopathy – hardly impartial as they sell and make money from these devices. The testers are therefore not independent.

        Are these your best evidence? If so, then you are really struggling to convince anyone.
        They are all weak studies. Two of them are by people who sell the devices, so not independent. The third is a ‘preliminary study’, a red flag for dubious modalities. When the full study comes out, get back to us.

        Sorry, but a big fail.
        r.

    Loriel said:
    March 16, 2014 at 9:05 am

    Who cares if it has been proven to work with clinical trials. If it helps people relieve pain through scientific means, placebo effect or “black magic” then it is worth it. Negativity and obvious disdain for those that don’t agree with oneself is far more harmful than a device that helps people for whatever reason.

      chris responded:
      March 16, 2014 at 2:47 pm

      You give far to much credit to the placebo effect. The claims made by these people, for example, that Scenar cures diabetes, are completely unproven, and also completely improbable.
      If that doesn’t bother you, by all means, donate your money to these guys.
      But don’t expect others to get sucked in because you don’t care about things being proven.
      Apathy can of course result in a stress-free life. Enjoy.

    Canada said:
    March 19, 2014 at 7:11 am

    Just one more New Age trick, this Scenar.

    Union Jack said:
    March 26, 2014 at 3:27 am

    Yep, SCENAR must be a scam. How do I know? Because I never tried it and I never will. In fact I’m going to the pharmacy right now to purchase some medicine that had clinical trials that I’m sure none of you could afford on your own so there. Chemical medicine is the only medicine and everything else is quackery.

      chris responded:
      March 26, 2014 at 8:18 am

      Oooh. Sarcasm. Very clever. Now let me try!
      Yep, SCENAR must work. It was invented in Russia. Everyone and his dog sells it. Some guy in California thinks it’s so good, you don’t need any evidence of efficacy – you just use it. How good is that?
      Nope, doesn’t work for me.
      Thanks for your valuable contribution. Perhaps next time, you could enlighten us with the evidence rather than wasting our time with your smart-arsed bullshit. If you have the misfortune of getting diabetes, I do hope you’ll use SCENAR to treat it, rather than that awful ‘chemical medicine’. Really.
      Just sayin’.

    Justin Gould said:
    April 4, 2014 at 4:51 am

    I don’t think you could be more wrong and I am the biggest skeptic. I have been on a downhill slide with tendinitis / tendinosis from taking Levaquin antibiotics and prednisone 6 months ago. Day by day it has been getting harder to walk and every step hurts. I could not sleep from the pain. It is so serious, I have been picking out scooters and canes for two weeks and adjusting my life accordingly. I am 41 years old and was very active and went to gym 4 times a week before this.

    Never having heard of Scenar or cold laser before, I went last night to a physical therapist who uses both. I LITERALLY walked in limping in pain and today I have NO PAIN in my right foot and only slight pain in my left. I am no longer limping and my tendons are not crackling anymore. ONE SINGLE TREATMENT!!!. I called the therapist today to ask what exactly she did and it was Scenar. I am now researching it to see what the hell it is and found your blog. I do not know what it did to me, perhaps it only deadened my nerves or something so that I don’t feel the pain. But your scam claims are reckless and totally inaccurate for people that need this therapy and can actually benefit. You are potentially robbing people of quality of life by discouraging them from trying. I happened to try it because of chance. Had I researched it first and found your blog, I may not have!!! It would have been a big mistake as this is is the ONLY thing that has actually worked for me. The rest of my sports med specialists physicians and PTs can kiss my ass because they did nothing for me but make me worse.

    I admit I am still skeptical because there has to be a catch. I have suffered too much for it to be this easy. But I am cautiously optimistic for now. We will see how long it lasts. If I have to do every week to keep walking I will. I am only one treatment in, I will check back in with a revision if the pain comes back.

      rationalbrain responded:
      April 4, 2014 at 9:17 am

      I’m glad it helped you Justin.
      If you read my pieces over the journey I have repeatedly agreed that there may be some temporary pain relief available from scenar. That is a plausible outcome from something that inserts a low level of heating into the skin and possibly joints.
      What I will not accept without further evidence are all the claims of curing disease, and I keep using diabetes as the example, because that was one of the many claims made for it. THAT is a scam.
      If you can find evidence of that, then let us know.
      In the meantime, let us know how your treatment goes – how long does the effect last etc.
      rb.

        Justin Gould said:
        April 6, 2014 at 5:52 am

        Thanks. I agree 100%. While I don’t recall any noticeable heating, I will pay more attention next time. It felt more like sporadic tiny “zaps” or “sticking” on certain areas and nothing on others. She would go over the areas that zapped until they stopped zapping. There was a huge variance between different parts of my foot. The areas that zapped were consistent, the same spot on my foot each time. Then eventually the zapping/sticking stopped. Towards the end I asked if it was turned off because I could no longer feel anything , and she said it was because it was working. Im going to ask to use it on myself next time to feel the sensation from the other side to better describe it.
        Now a few days after my first treatment I am still without pain in both feet. I’m even able to walk barefoot again. I’m ecstatic but I’m also perplexed and cautious. I’ve been researching this ‘witchcraft’ quite a bit over the last couple days and have not run across anyone claiming scenar cures any disease like “diabetes”. I will keep my eyes peeled. I had physical therapy with a new chiropractor yesterday and asked him about it. He said to keep doing it. It was not long ago that chiropractors were treated as the same “out of the box” quackery. I have a physical therapy Monday morning and a scenar Monday night.
        However, I am still dubious of the scalar wave cold laser therapy she also used on me. Since the lasers were placed elsewhere on my body and not my feet (6 of them), I can only attribute my success to the scenar. While I cannot dismiss the laser, I cannot say definitively that it helped me either. She says one makes the other work better, but call me skeptical. My gut tells me there is more BS in the laser, but at least one of them definitely works. I also have to say that it did more than deaden the nerve as I originally thought. The “clicking and snapping” in every step has been dramatically reduced. Perhaps it has something to do with inflammation. I will keep you posted.

        rationalbrain responded:
        April 6, 2014 at 7:47 am

        Re diabetes and other diseases, there are any number of sites making these claims – here is but one: http://www.21stcenturyenergymedicine.com/treatment-c20.html, look under ‘what scenar can treat’. And if you go to the Russian websites themselves, they are just choc full of these grandiose claims.
        For the record, I do consider chiropractors as quackery too. Apart from some relief for lower back pain, they do nothing else of value in my opinion, which is also backed up by the deafening lack of any decent study results.
        Basically, any therapy that relies on energy medicine, or invisible energy lines, invisible and uncharted pressure points, or chakras, or qi – call it whatever you like – is pure fantasy.
        rb

    beenie said:
    April 4, 2014 at 11:02 am

    no way have you got at this for 2 years rationalbrain!

    I found this by typing in ‘scenar’ and ‘scam’, so obviously I did wonder if this was too good to be true, I never saw claims made about it curing disease just helping to heal injuries quicker.

    I actually spoke to an infectious disease specialist once that said they use electric shocks to kill persistent infections in the bladder, some kind of cutting edge treatment. I saw this scenar device earlier today and wondered if it was the same thing.

    I think you seem to be right, logically, but unfortunately we don’t live in a perfect world where something that helps will definitely be tested. Examples include allicin from garlic, the bbc reported how a brand of allicin cream cured mrsa infected wounds, but the company can’t afford medical trials, so it doesn’t get used in hospitals. And there’s equally no chance that a pharma company (or government, suspiciously) would step in and fund a natural product to be used over any pharmaceutical. We’re living in a backwards society in many ways.

    But yeah, I do think this stuff looks pretty scammy,

    Justin Gould said:
    April 8, 2014 at 12:12 pm

    I have been all over the site you mention looking for any claims about curing diabetes, even with a site search I cannot find. I’m an IT guy but if it is there, I am missing it. But is irrelevant. I don’t know anything about energy, pi or the like, but I do know the difference between pain and no pain. I just got back from my second session with scenar and I paid very close attention this time after last weeks unexpected results.

    1st. There was no heat at all. In fact, most of the time it felt like she was rubbing a smooth piece of metal on my skin. Then in some places it felt like it stuck to my skin, and in some places is zapped the hell out of me, enough to make me jump when it hit my fingers. She had to adjust the power for my toes and fingers which is where you can really feel that it is on. Last week she treated my feet. I hobbled in and walked out with no pain in my feet and I am even able to walk barefoot without orthodics all week for first time in 5 months. The pain has not come back (if it does I promise to follow-up). This morning I had physical therapy on my calves which has been very sore all day. Once again, I went to scenar with pain and walked out with none.. NONE. And when I say none I mean NONE. I have nothing to gain and don’t care if you believe it, but I’m telling the world about this. Why is this not mainstream? Just knowing this makes me very upset with our system.

    Before you discredit my personal 1st hand experience, you yourself can test it and decide for yourself like I did… Go to a regular US medical doctor and tell them you have a bad cough. Get a 14 day Rx for Levaquin 500mg and Prednisone. If you are like the unlucky 1 in 100 (good odds) by day 9 your tendons will snap before you are done. If you are lucky like me, you will only get severe tendonosis in feet and hand and shoulder which will degenerate your tendons over the next year and stop you from doing everything you used to do. Gym, dive, hike, bike etc. You will no longer be able to walk barefoot or in sandals. Really sucks if in Florida like me. Go to orthopedic specialist after specialist and have them make you worse with more drugs and have them tell you that you “we can only treat you with tools inside the approved box” as a condolence. Join every facebook support group for fluouroquinilone toxicity (Levaquin, Cipro and Floxicin), and all the horror stories and meet people who have been disabled from all over the country by western “medicine”. THEN, when you get to the point when you can no longer grocery shop for yourself and need a scooter and envy the amputees with blades for feet and start preparing to go on disability, THEN and only then, take the scenar challenge. (you will have nothing to loose at that point.)

    I did all of the above, 5 days later I say that the best decision I ever made was to abandon the “in the box” western medicine and try something new. Even if it does not last (which I do not yet know) I would gladly give my left nut for a device that could alleviate pain like what i have just experienced with scenar. Pi? Chi, Pie? Cheese? I don’t know. I don’t care. But please don’t knock it until you try it or you are just as bad as the doctors that blindly poison and debilitate patients with “approved medicine”. Again. If there are any changes, I will let you know.
    Justin Gould
    Ft. Lauderdale FL

      rationalbrain responded:
      April 8, 2014 at 12:29 pm

      OK, check this out. I did a simple google ‘scenar diabetes’. http://ebodyfusion.com/russian-scenar-clinical-results-details-on-18255-people/
      Diabetes, as it turns out, is probably the least challenging of the claims made in this – totally unbelievable. There’s a lot of 100% cures claimed. Can you blame people for calling bullshit on this?
      And it’s not mainstream because there is NO clinical evidence to support its use – quite simple, and what I’ve been banging on about. Just like homeopathy, chiropractic, accupuncture – millions use the stuff, but they are all placebo feel-good things – there is no measurable, clinical improvement – just subjective assessments.
      But each to his own.
      rb.

        Justin Gould said:
        May 6, 2014 at 6:05 am

        It’s me again with an update. Just over a month since my first SCENAR therapy session I received when I could barely walk for several months prior because of Levaquin antibiotoc induced tendonipathy. I am now back at the gym and pain free. I’m also the proud owner of a US made device that I most happily plopped down $3800 hard earned dollars to buy after my 3rd successful professional treatment. Call it overkill since my pain never returned, but the results were too incredible not pursue and I treat myself every few days for good measure. I had to get an RX to buy it and I had to take a full day class for it. At no time did they ever make any claim whatsoever that it would cure anything, in fact, the trainers were EXTREMELY careful not to make any claim other than pain relief, even when I poked and prodded them about it. In a full day of training and reading every bit of info I could find on the actual manufactures training site, there was not a word about “energy fields, chakras etc..” It was all about blocking signals from A, B and C nerves, donating electrons and reducing inflammation etc.
        Going back to your earlier comment, you mention “low level heat”. There is no heat at all that I can notice, so I am wondering if you have actually tried it or if you are just making assumptions. I don’t doubt there are many foreign sites making BS claims. BS is everywhere (just watch FOX News for 10 minutes.) But there are also reputable companies using this technology which I believe is simply amazing. I derived this fact from personal experience, not hearsay or self-interest. When I tried to show it to my orthopedic specialist on my last followup visit, he would not even look at it. The same doc that wanted to give me a shot cortisone and pills for the pain which I refused, yet won’t listen about what worked from his patient. This is a symptom of a sick system. But I really believe you should not be so hard on it because it most definitely, without a shadow of doubt, works for pain.

        rationalbrain responded:
        May 7, 2014 at 2:18 am

        Justin, great for you. Never doubted that it could help pain, but still maintain that most of the claims out there are crap. Sorry. Testimonials like yours are fine, but until and unless there are some decent big trials I won’t be convinced. What especially bothers me is WHY there are no trials? Big pharma conspiracy? Western medicine blind to revolutionary new treatments? These are the reasons often given, which of course I don’t buy. I’m still in the placebo camp, and won’t be persuaded by individual testimonial camp. Remember, millions of people swear by homeopathy too, but that’s just crap, and trials show it. In any case, I wish you continuinig good health.

    Fiona said:
    June 12, 2014 at 9:05 pm

    Rational brain, I’m a GP and I had a patient ask me about scenar today. She is paying a therapist $44 twice a week and getting no improvement in symptoms (actually reporting worsening symptoms). A pub med search lead me to 4 articles, which had terrible study design, very small numbers and conclusions that were not backed up with any statistical significance. Also, all 4 “researchers” either sold the device or sold treatments with the device and didn’t declare it as a conflict of interest… (I had to google names to find out). I found a trial registration that sounded half decent on ANZCTR (frozen shoulder at university of Sunshine Coast) but can’t find any data or results. I thought it strange that they chose frozen shoulder (aka adhesive capsulitis) because it is a condition that self resolves with no treatment in most people given enough time…… Anyway, I’m thinking of phoning Dr Dale Lovell if I can’t find some answers soon. Have you found the results? If so, can you please post the link. Ta!

      rationalbrain responded:
      June 13, 2014 at 9:33 am

      Fiona, thanks for this – interesting that someone else is doing some research on this! As you can see from the comments, I mostly get people telling me how closed-minded I am for dismissing scenar.
      As for the trial you mentioned – I’ve just had a look at it – they seem to have been recruiting for quite a while, but it seems a reasonable design. Let’s see what the outcomes are.
      Anyway, no, I have no more results – that’s one thing I keep urging proponents to send me – but as I would expect, none are ever forthcoming.
      The only results you will find are from people who sell the therapy, and as you say, they are, without exception, worthless.
      I’m most amazed by the claims made about curing disease – as you will find on the many Russian websites. Of course, for many, the fact that this is of Russian origin is somehow a stamp of approval, and that ‘western medicine’ has some interest in suppressing it.
      Despite the bluster, there are still no results.
      One would think that if the therapy is as magical as claimed, that some testing would have been done – it wouldn’t be expensive or difficult. The clear implication is that proponents don’t want to know the answer, particularly if the cash-cow keeps on giving. It’s still SCAM for me.
      If you find anything, happy to post.
      rb.

      britt from new zealand said:
      September 2, 2016 at 5:51 pm

      it is funny because i also asked my musc skel physician and he just didnt answer me he, has filled me up with codeine paracetamol ibeprophen anten you name it ive had it
      so i took my father n laws advice going against all medical practitioners and i have had quite a bit of improovement
      i dont doubt that doctors have nothing to gain refering you but much to gane by keeping you returning to their practise

    Joss said:
    June 26, 2014 at 7:47 pm

    Its already been explained how Scenar works but to repeat it has nothing to do with “thermal effects” as suggested by RationalBrain. Anyone who has tried it will know there is no heating involved… it is a biofeedback device and it would be a waste of sophisticated electronics to do what a microwaved wheat pack could.

    RationalBrain also states that small battery powered devices could not be powerful enough to produce significant effects… has he ever heard of a Tazer or a Cattle-prod? These small battery powered devices do not seem to lack any power.
    Of course high voltage is useless therapeutically since the body communicates in Millivolts.

    Rationalbrain seems to be asserting that any therapy not proven by clinical trials does not work, a ridiculous theory, because that would discount a lot of therapies used by doctors and surgeons every day. Everyone knows that major institutions/research facilities/grants/universities etc are set up to test surgical or chemical treatments. It is simply a matter of time before Scenar is officially recognised. In the meantime, it still works just as well.
    Think about how long it took for surgeons to figure out most knee arthroscopes did more harm then good – what 50 years?? And they are still doing them. What about all the other useless and maiming surgeries that are performed every year such as most hysterectomy’s, gall bladder removals, back operations, cesareans, tonsilectomies?? Or how about the chemotherapy and flu shot scams. Why doesn’t that anger rationalbrain more than a device that nearly everyone (who’s tried it) loves and importantly has never harmed anyone….Seems like a major bias to me, a classic case of double standards

    And on another note, if anyone wants scientific references for all the research done into acupunture just look at the back of any good acupuncture or trigger point textbook. There are thousands of studies

      rationalbrain responded:
      June 26, 2014 at 8:18 pm

      Let’s go in reverse order shall we Joss?
      Any quality studies on acupuncture show ZERO benefit, other than some minor placebo effects, which we all know is worthless. Don’t know what fantasy literature you’re looking at. The very notion of an acupuncture ‘text book’ is a laugh – as if there is any science behind it.
      Secondly, chemotherapy and flu shots are a scam? Geez. If/when you need chemo, be sure and let me know how the coffee enemas work out for you, or perhaps acupuncture?
      Flu shots have now been shown to provide a net benefit to the population. It sounds to me like you’d be a vaccine-denier as well, in which case I’m wasting my breath.
      Arthroscopes don’t do more harm than good. They just don’t do as much good as was first thought, and it also depends on what you have them for. I’ve personally had two on each leg to clean out fragments of stuff from wear and tear, so all good there. The beauty of the arthroscope issue is that, unlike acupuncture, scenar, homeopathy etc etc, the very practitioners who make a living from them did the studies and came up with the conclusions! Fancy that! Well, that’s science at work. Not your fantasy world.
      And, good grief, you believe real medical therapies are simply just used until they enter the mainstream – is that what you’re suggesting? If so, you do live in a dream world. Everything used in hospitals is assessed in great detail before being let loose on the public. What you are suggesting is laughable.
      Joss, you seem intent on tearing down whatever you can, but that doesn’t make scenar any more credible.
      Tasers and cattle prods work by storing energy in a big-ass capacitor, and releasing it in short bursts, and have a short life. So tell me how the scenar device works in those terms – over what period is the energy released, to what depth does it penetrate, and what nerves or muscles or whatever are affected? And how does the feedback part of the bio-feedback work?
      I’m betting you’ll give me some pseudo-sciencey mumbo-jumbo, but please, try to make it coherent, and also conforming with the know laws of physics would be good.
      Minor pain relief aside, Scenar is a big joke, and the ONLY proponents are those who make money out of it.
      Again I challenge you: give me evidence of any example in which a real disease has been cured by scenar as claimed. A prediction: you will give me ZIP. Or perhaps just more whining about the establishment is keeping scenar down, and how narrow minded people like me are, and how a zillion russians can’t be wrong. Whah, whah, whah!
      I’m not narrow-minded, I just know bullshit when I see it.
      So spare me your condescending tone, and let’s talk about evidence and facts.

    joss said:
    June 27, 2014 at 4:50 am

    Already provided was a list of references supporting electrotherapy as a tool for healing/regenerating bone, skin, nerves, cartilage& more but u wld not publish, feigning insult if I recall. Typing scenar or acupuncture into PubMed is not comprehensive research, it indexes very little of relevancy in many fields. If u think all those ops/meds are well proven u dont know much about medicine.
    How exactly does one make a placebo control for a surgical procedure anyway?

    joss said:
    June 27, 2014 at 5:02 am

    By the way acupuncture is mainstream in China & practiced in all hospitals. Some operations are conducted using only acupuncture as anesthesia & it achieves many cures, sometimes where nothing else does such as in cases of infantile paralysis & deaf mutism. I can assure u acupuncture text books & modern journals exist. My acupuncture textbook is thicker then my principals of internal medicine. Travell & Simmons Trigger point texts r even bigger & have 1000s of peer reviewed refs. Travell was personal GP to a number of US presidents

      rationalbrain responded:
      June 27, 2014 at 9:55 am

      Then why is it that recent high quality trials found no benefit to acupuncture… in fact ‘sham’ acupuncture was just as effective (as if the whole thing is not a sham). In fact the conclusion was the mere attention by a practitioner was just as effective.
      Your assurances, while well-meaning, and with all due respect, don’t amount to much. You may as well recommend the bible or harry potter as a source of truth. Just because someone writes a lot of words, doesn’t mean anything. It’s testing that counts, and acupuncture has failed miserably. Wishful thinking doesn’t cut it. Please review the relevant independent literature – not so-called text books.
      I recommend this analysis for a nice overview: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/. Until you have any evidence to the contrary, then, well, acupuncture doesn’t work. Oh, and the fact that it is practiced in China is irrelevant. Millions prey to a god too, doesn’t make it true. Both activities suffer the same shortcoming – long on dogma, short on evidence.

    Bob said:
    July 2, 2014 at 8:02 pm

    I had a Scenar treatment in Lismore (Australia) this week. I’d actually booked a deep tissue massage but had this nonsense pushed upon me instead. It was a complete and utter waste of my time and my insurer’s money. The whole session I was constantly being prompted to report the improvement to my condition that I “must” be experiencing. The guy seemed genuinely disappointed when I couldn’t report feeling any difference to my state. In the end I just felt sorry for him and told him what he wanted to hear, which also hastened my exit from this fraudster’s realm. It was quite clear that he was attempting to use physcological trickery, like a fairground clairvoyant, where fault for lack of effect is placed firmly in the lap of the patient. Avoid this scam at all costs.

      rationalbrain responded:
      July 2, 2014 at 8:08 pm

      That’s an interesting story Bob. Could you elaborate on what it felt like? Any sensation at all?
      The pressure for a positive response is new angle I haven’t come across before.
      rb.

        Bob said:
        July 14, 2014 at 6:53 pm

        It felt like any other electrotherapy device, localised tingling within the tissues in the area of contact. I’ve had electrotheraphy before during physio for a broken knee and it was precisely the same. When applied at the neck it caused the shoulder to involuntarily flex up towards the ear, much like you’d expect when muscles as electrically stimulated. Then, and now, I can’t see the point.

        But the most disappointing thing about the entire session is that this scam-shop focuses heavily on Scenar for pain relief (closer inspection of their advertising pushes the pain relief aspect), but that is not the therapy I had booked and that had been promised on the phone. I wanted deep tissue massage, entire body, obstensively as part of a systemic detox regime, shifting stuff I probably shouldn’t have been imbibing towards the body’s pumps and filters for processing, metabolising and expungement. Whether that is a reasonable expectation or not is perhaps for others to judge, but that is the therapy prescribed by a qualified physician.

        Instead this device was rubbed with increasing roughness along my spine for 10 minutes. Frankly, it was scratching the skin more significantly then the electrical sensation. I was then sat up and asked to describe the changes I “would” (sic) be experiencing. I felt nothing. His face fell. So more electricity was needed, more spine rubbing, up and down. Ah, suddenly the feedback mechanism was starting to get readings now. This is a “good” sign, apparently. 10 minutes later, sat up again and prompted to describe the “improvement”. Still nothing. There was still nothing because I wasn’t there to feel better immediately, or have pain treated. He arched his eyebrows. Nothing else for but to turn it up and apply it to the neck. Shoulder hunched, as expected. Eventually he did some laying on of hands, a pincer squeeze with finger tips to the major muscle group between the ear and shoulder. Hurt like buggery but he wouldn’t relent with the pressure I’m assured and the pain would be addressed b y the Scenar treatment I’d just had, except he was very obviously reducing the pressure over the course of a couple of minutes. I know this because, well, I’m not an idiot.

        On leaving I was warned I would experience I might feel sad and depressed for a while (anything to do with my divulging I was on medication to treat depression, perhaps?). Yes, I was a little sad at being duped, but knowing my insurance company was the real victim here perked me up a lot.

        rationalbrain responded:
        July 15, 2014 at 11:27 am

        Interesting.. sounds a bit like cold-reading scams in which the subjects feel social pressure to go along with what is being suggested, and even amplify the effect.
        Kudos for recognising and resisting this pressure.

    Martin said:
    July 21, 2014 at 2:16 pm

    Just writing to support you rationalbrain. It is critical for society’s progress that people like yourself continue to defend the scientific method – it’s all we have in the pursuit of useful knowledge. Keep up the good work.

      rationalbrain responded:
      July 21, 2014 at 2:18 pm

      Thanks Martin, much appreciated.
      rb.

    Interested Dude said:
    September 17, 2014 at 1:52 am

    Hi RB, I have to disagree with you. I used Scenar therapy – and it was a revelation. A brief background. I have a severe neurological condition, leading to chronic pain. Tried a bunch of things, they didn’t work. Scenar therapy did…theres a bunch of devices out there though, don’t know if all will work, after everyone went their own way and set up competing groups but based on the same basic tech more or less. There may be devices even better than the one that they treated me with- Scenar after all is Russian, so you guys in the UK may have more access than I do. Apparently, each device varies in terms of the signal applied, power levels etc.

    The relief that folks like me get is usually sudden, we suddenly realize we are out of pain or our movements become less zombie like. At least thats what I was told. I was happily moving around, picking up stuff, acting pain free.

    Anyways long story short, I got a session, and slept without pain for the first time in days. The flipside is that these things are basically analgesic/pain relieving – they can help reduce the pain and inflammation but are not curative. I say this, because after my 10-12 sessions of the device, my symptoms returned after 3 months.

    So you have to keep going back for top up sessions or maintenance. I didn’t and in hindsight I probably screwed up. But there was also the aspect that at the time, I was in denial about how much pain I was in and didn’t want to be dependent on any device or anyone.

    Plus, unfortunately knowledge of Scenar stuff where I am located is next to abysmal. Everyone swears by TENS and TENS and ultrasound did nothing for me. I have a TENS device which I put on max and I can’t even feel the darn thing.

    The other thing is they are very expensive, which makes them prohibitively out of reach for many folks.

    Scenar devices retail for around $2-5K each 😦 Otherwise I’d have purchased my own devices and tried them out further. Presumably, not all are equal..

    IMHO, scenar and energy therapies have a lot of potential, provided they are used as part of a multi modal effort, you have to use them along with lifestyle alterations & hopefully move towards a more healthy lifestyle.

    I have been through the chronic pain grind and then some. And everyday I kick myself for not having been a bit more open minded and tried stuff like acupuncture, this Scenar stuff or other stuff earlier. Might have reduced the inflammation, chronic pain to the point that my system is not so out of whack as it currently is.

    Over the past few years, thanks to my condition, I have come across folks who have restored their normal quality of life using “alternative therapies” – acupuncture per published literature has either limited effect via endorphins or placebo effect (sham accupuncture showed similar results). A few of the stories I have heard around it though are mind boggling. I’d use it extensively myself, but i have the usual monetary concerns (its not cheap) and second, logically speaking, causing extensive scarring in my tissue using needles is not something I think is sustainable for the long term.

    As to meridians and chakras – my own thinking in recent years, after doing a fair bit of reading & discussing with folks who have undergone these diverse treatments, good and bad, is that for at least a few of the more credible treatments (yoga, ayurveda, accupuncture, taichi etc) folks earlier were “on to something”, its just that they labeled it completely differently and addressed it in a different manner with the limited tools that they had at hand. They didn’t say neuropeptides are released if you exercise, they said “healing powers of the earth yada yada” etc.. Yogas powers for restorative healing are now acknowledged. I daresay a few decades back, it would be dismissed cavalierly.

    Similarly, now we are left going around with a set of rules for a method of treatment where the “why’s” are lost completely and we are left with a set of rules which we neither understand or are applied haphazardly. They may not cure or help everything, but a lot of the stuff that we do go through now must be similar to what was there earlier in terms of physical injuries. They didn’t have high power microscopes, or CAT scans or MRI scans to basically figure out what was happening. They went by their own hypothesis, x works and its because of y (which we would call something else entirely today) and results in z. Hence, y is right. So some of these ancient healing methods work for some folks, but the “why” or y, is simply not known and is often couched in esoteric stuff which makes no sense to the modern medical practitioner. The big challenge then is to differentiate between which of these modalities works & discount the placebo effect. So do Meridians and Chakras exist – perhaps they do. Perhaps they aren’t some invisible energy as the ancients thought them to be, but practically the flow of bioelectricity through some nodes which result in a variety of end outcomes depending on the different voltages, currents, frequencies etc. I do wish though more research is done on these aspects, because it can have a huge impact on the quality of life of many folks.

    Unfortunately, our system is very dependent on surgery/medicine related research. I wish equal regard was given to physiotherapy, and these sort of non medicine related modalities.

    Leave a questionnaire with all the folks who take these therapies, and put in some screening to see what worked and didn’t. Have them submit it a few months later when rationality has kicked in and not the initial euphoria of having found “something” that may work.

    Figure out a way. The Govt’s have to step up. Depending on the private sector alone, mostly drug firms, to act counter to their interests and plunk hundreds of millions on trials for stuff they can’t monetize, is a wasted effort. Its simply bad economics. Meanwhile, desperate folks are trying everything to cure their chronic pain and a lot of stuff simply doesn’t work because its not part of a protocol. I mean, if you have a broken leg, accupuncture to reduce the inflammation, conventional medical plaster to keep the bone in place, some sort of exercise program + stretching for long term care (yoga, pilates, whatever) should work. But very little seems to be oriented around such conservative therapies or is available easily.. short term stuff is not enough for long term relief..

    Its sort of pathetic really, that we can go to the moon, send satellites to mars, but all this is not a focus area.

    Best regards

      rationalbrain responded:
      September 17, 2014 at 7:49 am

      Again, glad it worked for you, and time and again I have accepted that the device may offer some mild pain relief – that much seems at least plausible. if you read my previous comments, it’s the claims for disease cure that I won’t accept without any evidence. Still a massive scam based on the outlandish claims made for it – along with all the other modalities you mentioned.

        interestedobserver said:
        September 17, 2014 at 3:23 pm

        If you dont know whether it works or not how is it a massive scam? For instance you note, “mild pain relief”- my condition is anything but mild, its chronic and very painful. The device worked brilliantly, albeit the effects were temporary (3 months give or take a few days). The other modalities i mentioned, PT, yoga, ayurveda, taichi, acupuncture are now used worldwide by painmanagement and rehabilitation professionals. James Dillard has personal experience of these multimodal treatments working if you want a western reference. Where i am located, yoga and ayurveda have a huge record of rescueing folks from RSI and other neuropathy inducing chronic conditions, plus DDD. Taichi is brilliant for those whom yoga is too strenuous. Scenar tech isnt rocket science, PR fluff apart. Its a high intensity current signal in a localized area and hence more effective than TENS. Blocking pain signals automatically releases spasms and reduces the nerve irritation induced by the spasm in turn. You can then attempt to go about your normal life for a while. It also affects a different set of nerve fibers than the usual A and B. As to why some devices worked and why some didnt in the comments above, i have no idea. Might depend on the signals and powers plus the pain conditions. Conventional ultrasound and TENs also provides some relief to so many folks. I am one of those on whom they have zilch effect. I’d suggest that if you actually want to understand these modalities and their outcomes, spend some time at pain management centers. Placebo effect apart, they do figure out what works and what doesnt, even if their own understanding of the whys is dodgy or not comprehensive.

        rationalbrain responded:
        September 17, 2014 at 4:32 pm

        It’s a massive scam if they claim it fixes disease, and they do. Zero evidence, zero plausibility. Simple.
        Yes, I accept some pain relief, but nothing else about this thing.
        There’s a lot of correspondents on this thread, right? I’ve challenged all of them to supply even basic evidence of disease cure, but none are forthcoming. Why is that?
        Simple answer is – it doesn’t work. You don’t need to be Einstein to work that out.
        Oh, and by the way – acupuncture – also no effect beyond placebo. When you can get the same effect using sham acupuncture, you know it’s all in the mind. Anything that relies on these mysterious ‘energy lines’ which no-one can see or measure or in any way detect, is also a waste of time and money. Like chiropractic.
        Yes, they are used world-wide. So what? So is homeopathy, and it’s just water. There’s a lot of wishful thinking out there.
        But I’m glad it works for you.

    Interested Dude said:
    September 17, 2014 at 2:05 am

    BTW, I read Justin’s comments above – the device I used is probably the same one he did – based on his descriptions of where its made etc. And the expense. 😦
    It works..I am not mentioning the name unless you are ok with it.. I actually found out it was Scenar after searching for how it works.

      Interested Dude said:
      September 17, 2014 at 7:51 pm

      I think you need to spend some more time researching chronic pain and associated diseases before you dismiss anything that affects pain relief as not being curative. I’ll get to that later.

      Thing is you are making the same mistake I did when I approached these topics in that I looked at it with a rather binary system – absence of evidence in empirical studies = there being no efficacy whatsoever, as versus trying to find out what are the gaps in current systems of knowledge (including pubmed, nih and all sorts of associated evidence based research repositories) and then applying your own knowledge to see why something is working and why something isn’t.

      For instance, how detailed were the reports that detailed acupuncture doesn’t work? How many practitioners did they approach, from how many different countries, places and for different conditions? How did they certify that the protocol being followed was even right for the condition? I can even mail you (if you are interested) an account from a heavily injured individual for whom acupuncture worked – and with chronic pain, the placebo effect doesn’t really last.

      My only concern at this point is to determine modalities which work. Folks who have issues similar/more severe to mine, have invested considerable efforts, time and money into determining what works & documented it. In short, their results are not necessarily anecdotes but fairly thorough in their own right.

      The basic issue with several of these “alternative modalities” – and no doubt, some of them are pure bunk, in that we doubtless agree & I understand where you are coming from – is that very little serious effort has gone into studying them. The scale of effort that is required has to be massive to come up with emphatic conclusions. I don’t see that anywhere, because they have been labeled alternative, and as such, there is a serious lack of seriousness associated with them in terms of the manner in which conventional medicine views them, and in turn, the kind of quackery that infests alternative medicine centers.

      They can offer something that works – scenar, based on basic physics/electromagnetics, to telepathy or whatever. Both are then @ the same level, described the same way.

      Now the reason why I said you need to look more into chronic pain and stuff and perhaps you’ll come up with insights that can help us all, is because from my reading so far, the current state of knowledge on these aspects is abysmal but there is a common pattern to all of us folks with the issue. Our nervous/immune systems are inflamed and pain is now part of the issue itself.

      The basic thing is that pain itself causes disease in that it spikes inflammatory chemicals which in turn cause dysfunctions wherever the nervous system is able to influence any sort of body behavior or changes. So a pain response when it is unregulated and remains high, causes the central nervous system and the autonomic nervous system to go out of whack. It then tends to cause further downstream effects on many other bodily functions. In turn, the nerve disorder is linked to the immune system. (And I’ll bet you that these are linked to each other, have one it worsens the other, which worsens the former … and so forth)

      http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/15/fibromyalgia-research-breakthrough/3991063/

      Folks who have these issues then tend to make lifestyle changes which worsen their health conditions (over reliance on pain meds) etc which in turn perpetuate the dysfunctions elsewhere. Exercise itself is a medicine, releases endorphins, balances the humor so to speak, and less stress as perceived by the brain releases less stress hormones and reduces inflammation. But folks in pain cant.

      In short, for people with short term conditions, I don’t find it unrealistic at all, that they can have a lot of benefit from a device or any modality that stops the constant pain related inflammation & allows their body to partly get back in synch. Do I sell these therapies or have a protocol to follow myself? No. But I do know a few people who have managed to kick their larger issues or manage them, by first fixing the pain cycle.

      Another interesting thing… IMO, the reason why some folks who had real good results from the “integrated” approaches used in some therapies – was because the entire process was regulated, from diet to their daily lifestyle apart from whatever intrusive treatment was being used (massage, acupuncture etc). It was their chronic inflammation which was reduced. You returned to the good old stuff – stimulants (nicotine, alcohol etc) and everything went back to the high baseline. The challenge then is to figure out what works for whom and devise a protocol that addresses all aspects. Pain management by itself should become a focused discipline beyond just addressing symptoms.

      In short, I don’t find it amazing or quackery at all, that some pain management can alleviate or even assist in curing more severe disorders. The entire body is one giant network of interconnected systems – basically electric/chemical signals & the challenge is in figuring out which is influencing what.

        Interested Dude said:
        September 17, 2014 at 8:00 pm

        And I’ll have to bow out of this debate for now.. unfortunately, even typing what i did zaps enough out of me 😦
        Have a good day..

        rationalbrain responded:
        September 17, 2014 at 8:16 pm

        Sorry to hear that. All the best with what ails you.
        rb.

        rationalbrain responded:
        September 17, 2014 at 8:15 pm

        Actually I think I’ve spent quite enough time researching this – have you read how far back this goes!
        When someone shows me a study demonstrating that Scenar cured diabetes, or any disease for that matter, then let’s talk. The fact that pain relief may affect things like fibromyalgia is not surprising, since it’s essentially a nerve ending thing, which is about how deep Scenar could go, and I can therefore envisage a mechanism. But drawing any further conclusions about internal diseases is simply not appropriate.
        I don’t believe I’m making any mistake, sorry.
        For me it is binary. Show me the evidence. No evidence despite decades of testing (e.g. acupuncture, homeopathy) ? Not likely to ever be any. Therefore if you claim something in these areas, it’s a scam (or you’re deluded).
        If there are no empirical studies, how do we know that it does anything at all? Also, if there are no studies, why not? People tell me crystals heal. Homeopathy heals. Acupuncture heals. Chiropractic heals. Therapeutic touch heals. Positive thinking heals. Trouble is, they don’t. So testimonies are worthless, with all due respect to your experience.
        And by the way – you ask how detailed were the reports that acupuncture doesn’t work. Before I answer that, the question betrays your thinking on this.
        It’s not up to me or anyone to prove that it doesn’t work. We don’t treat new medications from drug companies like that do we? It’s up the proponent to say, this works and here’s evidence, and here’s the dose/application etc.
        Having said that, there have been plenty of studies, the most recent one comparing ‘real’ acupuncture, to sham, and the results are crystal clear. Read this, by someone who has studied it in more detail than me, and quotes the relevant studies: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/07/08/acupuncture-small-risks-versus-no-benefit/.
        I agree about more study required re pain relief, but I can’t agree with your ‘integrated’ approach – that is, throwing in worthless therapies with proven therapies.
        1+0 is still 1, even in binary.

        Interested Dude said:
        September 17, 2014 at 8:39 pm

        >>homeopathy

        I haven’t brought homeopathy anywhere so its a bit of a red herring

        >>For me it is binary. Show me the evidence. No evidence despite decades of testing (e.g. acupuncture, homeopathy) ? Not likely to ever be any. Therefore if you claim something in these areas, it’s a scam (or you’re deluded).

        Ad hominems don’t an argument make, “deluded” etc at this point you are again insisting on emphatics “show me the evidence”/”decades of testing” wherein I have pointed out that much of the testing is limited & will remain so until alternative medicine is taken seriously and explored likewise. i see little to no effort made in this regards:

        >>accupuncture..Having said that, there have been plenty of studies, the most recent one comparing ‘real’ acupuncture, to sham..Mr. Spurrell, who learned the ancient Chinese art on weekends at a local university,

        Seriously? thats a perfect example of what i am talking of… some fly by the night warrior trying stuff and causing a huge issue..

        >>The fact that pain relief may affect things like fibromyalgia is not surprising, since it’s essentially a nerve ending thing, which is about how deep Scenar could go, and I can therefore envisage a mechanism. But drawing any further conclusions about internal diseases is simply not appropriate. don’t believe I’m making any mistake, sorry.

        you are pretty mistaken here & as mistaken can be. nerves when irritated inflame muscle tissue, which can cause all sorts of other effects – all the way to compressing on blood vessels. blood vessels fall into cardiology. venous/lymph dysfunctions show up as pain elsewhere and put undue stress on other places.

        inflammatory chemicals when released by nerves spread. the body btw, has multiple uses for certain chemicals – you suppress one set of chemicals and you might end up with all sorts of alternate effects. know of several medicines which have online boards dedicated to their sides even tho’ FDA trials – the good kind – showed very limited sides on paper because the science thought they were linked to only one set of responses, but the body uses them for multiple reasons.

        Many diseases are “essentially nerve ending things” – I have talked/discussed the topic with multiple specialists across neurology, cardiology, rheumatism & even orthos..and they all dwell on how there are essentially two causes for chronic diseases.. one which can be addressed, one which can’t (not easily anyways)..

        one is the compressive/mechanical/trauma angle – eg fractures compressing on wounds – on nerves/causing edema and inflammation/pain.. surgery, conventional medicine addresses most of this

        second – internal dysfunction – some can be addressed on preventative (eg vaccinations for polio) … second, at the level of chronic inflammation once the issue becomes widespread… the causes become so interlinked that differential diagnosis becomes a challenge and in many cases next to impossible. addressing symptoms with medicines may cause downstream issues… FDA trials (the best there are) can’t predict effects a decade down the line.

        in short, there is a common stream running across chronic pain/diseases – and that is the central nervous system, immune system & our organs – all linked together, becoming dysfunctional.

        instead of vehemently arguing for arguments sake, spend some time on the net trawling through the experiences of folks suffering everything from recurrent rheumatism to fibro to TBI and it becomes clear what the pattern is…folks who end up going for one thing, find out something else altogether, even the medicines prescribed are the same, even the symptoms converge.

        btw fibro was also widely dismissed as being in the patients head, quackery & so forth, till its acceptance became (reluctantly) acknowledged. in that case too, skepticism crossed into dogma, till the reality became apparent..

        rationalbrain responded:
        September 18, 2014 at 8:58 am

        Sorry about that – bad wording – in my ad hom I was referring to those making claims in these areas in general. Sometimes people really believe what they are saying, so they are deluding themselves. It not really even ad hominem, just fact.
        I think it’s a cop out however to resort to the tired old argument that alt med is ‘not taken seriously’, and therefore hasn’t been studied. This is just another conspiracy theory. Practitioners have been desperate to demonstrate an effect, but with no success. No one suppresses the results – they just aren’t there. This is the case with acupuncture. Despite your dismissal – not sure where the Spurrell reference is from – some large, well controlled studies have been done recently, and no efficacy has been demonstrated. It’s fairly open and shut. Same with chiro – who even resorted to a law suit in the UK, only to be slapped down based on their non-existent evidence base.
        Look, I certainly take your point on pain and disease in some respects, but I still go back to the original claims I read for Scenar – that it will cure a whole host of diseases, once of which was diabetes. I picked this out because of the low plausibility to make a point. Until someone does some decent trials of this, and specifically cures diabetes, then this claim remains bogus, as do all the other claims.
        It’s simply not enough to say ‘diabetes is somehow related to inflammation and is internal and everything is linked, hence scenar will fix it’.
        I take exception to this being called dogma. It’s simple a search for an approximation of the truth, which I judge by seeing evidence, not on anecdotes.
        But if it works for you, as I’ve said, that’s great. You just can’t generalise. Penecillin is great, right? Well I’m allergic to it. Whose truth claim do we believe?

        interested dude said:
        September 20, 2014 at 8:05 am

        Hi RB, first off thanks for a polite and reasoned debate. Its hard on me to type so your civility and patience counts a lot.

        My point was that its not a CT to say alt med is not taken seriously.. thing is, it simply isn’t in many countries.. I am not living in the UK, so TBH haven’t followed chiro seriously. But in my country, there was and is a serious image problem associated with alternative therapy which has meant that everything is classified together as alternative therapy, science or no science as long as its not come from a reputed western mfr or is in a “conventional text”. Only then it becomes embarrassingly “mainstream”, even if there are issues with the so called research. Also, the left has been very active in my country and hence anything that belongs to any native/historical medicinal system is disparaged as non scientific and quasi-religious. They have targeted yoga and anything remotely “native” as being against “modernity” which I think is nuts.

        Of late, its slowly changing, before all the valuable stuff is totally lost. A medicinal plant may be prescribed in traditional medicine without its biological make up analyzed, purely because it has been found to work for many people but it would be decried purely because of dogma.

        Apart from my nations local eccentricities, at a wider level.
        There are two things here I think which are going on..
        One is the general ambivalence many in the public sector side have with alt therapies in general because of the shady characters peddling many of these therapies and their lack of documentation. However, some good ideas go into the dump along with them.

        From the western side, I was seeing a debate on a NIH site, wherein a credible western researcher was bemoaning the lack of investment in some modalities because of all the stigma associated with them (thanks much in fact to the non scientific claims made by some groups whom I won’t even attempt to name, who talk or claim structured water will work etc)

        Second, is the patenting + expense fact. Since I have some knowledge of this – a friend who was in medical trials noted how the medical trials he was associated with, were either very time intensive (despite big name involvement) + how expensive they were. Now, the entire issue is dominated by the pvt sector who pour in billions with the hope they can monetize a “unique molecule” or modality. Otherwise, the company fails, pure and simple.

        In alt therapies case, until & unless you have a unique delivery mechanism – if any of it falls into “prior art”, patenting becomes next to impossible and all the money you poured in goes nowhere. So I understand their challenges too and its not that they are “evil” but merely the way our system is structured.

        So, with credible large firms out of the fray, so the field is full of folks who run multilevel marketing devices without an intent to run expensive trials. Some may actually work, but there is no onus on them to conform to credible research. On the flip side, nor are the small firms assisted either so many promising ideas may be lost.

        This is the reason why I believe Govts should invest more in healthcare and preventive medicine, and even conservative treatment – PT etc and set up standardized regimens/protocols with the established basics (as we know from western medicine), exploring the popular pain mgmt etc alt medicine modalities only when there is some evidence it works or a lot of patient satisfaction from surveys etc.

        About acupuncture, the reason why I believe trials so far haven’t caught the depth of what it can (possibly) offer are the remarkable anecdotes that it has had on people with severe nerve disorders, above and beyond the usual stuff we can associate with a placebo effect. To my mind at least, it works for some people, many of whom had tried dozens of other things – perhaps their nervous system/make up is different, perhaps the practitioner was unique – but there seems to be a consistent strain of records on this at least where I am located & in the east. I see much the same with some medicines – they work on some people & the results are dramatic. Others are not at all affected. Given that chronic pain issues are severe, and conventional medicine is simply unable to cope, I have been following the outcomes of people with similar/severe issues and alternative therapies may work – provided they are not expected to deliver radical results overnight and are part of larger treatment. The main things IMO are some scientific results (are better than none),

        Chronic Pain
        http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/spotlight/091012
        Some oncology related stuff
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23104718
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23109700
        Decent summary here
        http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/introduction
        “How much do we know about acupuncture?

        There have been extensive studies conducted on acupuncture, especially for back and neck pain, osteoarthritis/knee pain, and headache. However, researchers are only beginning to understand whether acupuncture can be helpful for various health conditions.
        What do we know about the effectiveness of acupuncture?

        Research suggests that acupuncture can help manage certain pain conditions, but evidence about its value for other health issues is uncertain.
        What do we know about the safety of acupuncture?

        Acupuncture is generally considered safe when performed by an experienced, well-trained practitioner using sterile needles. Improperly performed acupuncture can cause serious side effects.”

        Osteoarthritis
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769860/

        Tai Chi
        http://nccam.nih.gov/health/taichi

        IMO, for patients with chronic pain and for whom these can be low risk adjuncts, its worth exploring all these modalities,

        The big challenge of course is cost. Apart from concerns of safety.

        Acupuncture cost can be pretty high. Service providers can charge a lot. Thats why pain management self treatment devices can help. The one I tried is at least conservative with its online claims. Others – after we last chatted, I was doing some more reading..if you want examples of SCENAR devices marketed with no corroborating evidence and a lot of handwaving there’s tons of stuff on the net, which I agree is pretty shameful.

        If they limit themselves to pain management and conservative claims, it would lend to their credibility.

        I’ll try the device I used, more and see if it works again, lets see.

        Keep you folks updated.

    Interested Dude said:
    September 17, 2014 at 8:43 pm

    >>Sorry to hear that. All the best with what ails you.

    thanks

    Interested Dude said:
    September 17, 2014 at 8:48 pm

    btw, last on your being mistaken..was not meant as a slam on you, you are not alone in silo’ing nerve disorders from other aspects…you wouldn’t believe the challenges amongst medical professionals about “silos”, neuros dont sit with cardios dont sit with PTs dont sit with spinal specialists don’t sit with rheumatologists don’t sit with researchers… each guy only has a part of the puzzle…i can assure you that many Drs WW barely have time to consider their own specialization as part of the larger whole.. and the only “problem” is the patient who has to doggedly go from one specialist to the other..
    i have learned it the hard way.. addressing pain is critical.. it can have downstream effects and of course, as u say, risks must be minimized..

    bye

    Armando said:
    October 1, 2014 at 3:07 am

    I think the main problem is that emotions cant be tested… frequencies is the same as emotions, vibration, energy etc… that is why all the time you ask for scientific evidence and proof and that my friend is as impossible as trying to measure water with a ruler, it is just not compatible. but you do have received a lot of emotional evidence that this works, only you are not able to recognize anything that doesnt fit your scientific language.

      rationalbrain responded:
      October 1, 2014 at 9:03 am

      So, with scenar are you trying to fix emotions or physical problems? If the former, well great.
      If you claim it can fix physical problems, then it must be measurable by definition, and therefore I call for measurements.

      Unfortunately you have clearly been taken in by all the mumbo-jumbo these scam artists put out there. Vibration / energy / frequencies are NOT the same as emotions – far from it. They are all physical things which CAN be measured. We use them everyday and measure them every day. If they are being affected it MUST be measurable.

      The trouble is, any therapy that claims to work by affecting frequencies/energy etc is completely bogus, because none of these very physical things has been shown to correlate with improved health. Sure, many will tell use our bodies work with electricity. But that’s at the cellular level. Our bodies don’t have a magical frequency, or energy lines – if they did, we could measure them – but they don’t, and therefore we can’t.

      So, you can be condescending and talk about my ‘scientific language’, but you are just using guess-work and wishful-thinking.

      PS – Err, one can actually measure water with a ruler. Here’s how: Fill a cup with water. Measure the height of the cup. Multiply the height in cm by the radius of the cup squared, then by pi (22/7). Now you have the volume of water in cubic centimeters. Cool huh? Science… try it, you’ll like it!

    skymoose said:
    November 23, 2014 at 2:27 am

    No thanks, I’ll just put some AAA cells in my ears! Same thing, right?

    Jenny said:
    December 20, 2014 at 8:49 am

    . Rationalbrain- is not the best user name for this post. To me, it sounds like your completely closed minded and on the defence with everything! You’re writing your so called facts based on something you’ve never personally have experienced. How rational is that? Lol I have to laugh because I will not diss something and go to the extent to write nothing but negative garble on something I have not tried. So rationalbrain…you should not read further then this.

    I’m writing this to all other readers on this forum. This is my soul experience from the scenar treatment I just recently had…

    I’m a very active healthy female who practices taekwondo 5 days week. Last month I tore my medial meniscus that caused me some great pain and left me unable to be active. I literally just sat on my couch for a couple weeks babying my injury. Two weeks ago I woke with what seemed to be a kinked neck. As the day went on the pain progressed where I couldn’t turn my neck or look up and down. Later that evening nerve pains shooting from my scapula radiated all into my left hand. The pain was excruciating to the point where I was having anxiety and in tears. I maybe had three hours sleep in total that night. Following morning the pain did not subside one bit. I’ve never had this happen to me in my life. Because of my health beliefs I will not take ibuprofen or any type of pain killers. So desperate to find relief my husband went and purchased the doctor Ho for me in which I was great-full for. It seemed to mask the pain but when not in use the pain level was still at a 9-10. Next day I made a doctors appt and he ordered X-rays and figured it to possibly be a pinched nerve in my cervical vertebraes. As the days went on I was starting to lose muscle strength in my entire arm and the feeling of numbness was getting worse. Throughout the week I had 3 physio treatments, massage therapy, and a visit to the chiro in which all visits did nothing…and I mean nothing. I was in tears after each treatment as I thought my life was going to be nothing but hell here on in. My knee was my least of worries now…I just wanted some sort of pain relief for the nerve pain. I had posted on fB on how I was in excruciating pain, and my hairdresser had responded saying that I need to go see her lady. She pm’d me that she saved her career and that it will in fact help me. She tried explaining the whole Scenar therapy but I just didn’t understand. My state of mind and level of pain I was in, I was desperate and called this wonderful lady. I was able to get in in three days. Wow was I counting down the days. Appt. day came, skeptical and nervous as I had no idea what to expect. She greeted me asked me some questions and assured me I’d be leaving her house feeling way better possibly pain free. I looked over to my husband (whom I brought with me) with a look of ‘Yeah right 😏’ this lady is off her rocker. She explained to me what it does and how it works…ask me how it works today I still can’t fully explain lol I need to do more studying, but just know it worked for me. My whole treatment had lasted for about 1hr 20min because she also worked on my knee. The feeling was similar to getting a tattoo. Intense for the most part but bearable at the same time. I felt all these strange feelings, nerves even running through my head. Muscles that I can actually feel lifting and twisting. It was the most bizarre treatment I’ve ever experienced in my life! And yes I’ve had the TENS machine on me more then you know, and it’s by far superior to that of the tens. I left her house with a pain level of 3…compared to the 9 & 10 right before treatment. As my day went on, I was getting more and more movement in my neck. By the time evening came I had full range of motion without pain. That’s right my pain had completely diminished. Now I’m no scientist or do I have scientific facts about this machine but all I know is that my body and what I’ve been thru is enough for my family a friends to see first hand what it did to me! All the hundreds of dollars, my time spent on different types of therapies in hopes I would be cured seemed to be a complete waste of time for me. And all it took was 1whole hour and 20 minutes to get relief and I get to return back to work. I’ll also add that my knee had zero pain and the next day I was able to fully extend my knee. Believe it or not…but don’t judge anything until you’ve actually tried it. When pain takes over your life and leaves you debilitated, you’ll go to any extent to fix the problem. I was indeed skeptical, but thru my experiences with this treatment I’m a firm believer to the point where I went out and purchased my own device to treat my family.

    Keep Calm & Scenar On!!! 😉

      rationalbrain responded:
      December 20, 2014 at 9:01 am

      Jenny
      A couple of points:
      1. I believe I have a rational approach because personal experience is a terrible way to assess the efficacy of treatment. In fact it is irrational to say ‘if it works for me, it must be good’. Ask anyone who does real science.
      2. Having said that, if you’ve read just about any of my comments on this, I’ve agreed that pain relief is a feasible effect of this device, albeit a tenuous one, given the minute power of some of these devices.
      3. What I’ve objected to strongly is the claims made in many scenar websites and by their practitioners that it cures disease – I’ve used diabetes as the example all along, but there are many others quoted. To believe that this device can cure ANY disease without evidence is irrational, or just wishful thinking.
      4. Most testimonies are worthless, and have come from people with skin in the game. That is, they sell the thing. To believe them is irrational.

      So, if you firmly believe that scenar can cure disease. Let me know.
      Also let us know how you know this, and please provide a link to the evidence.
      I’m betting you won’t, because there IS NO EVIDENCE that scenar cures any disease. To believe otherwise is simply irrational.

      Actually I hope you do, because to find such a miracle device would be a boon for humanity.
      But you won’t.

    Jenny said:
    December 20, 2014 at 9:28 am

    Scenar is a medical breakthrough, to me I don’t need scientific evidence to make me a believer. Through personal experiences and friends experiences is all I need. If listening and reading all these stories how Scenar has helped thousands isn’t enough to make you believe that this device works, then you’re simply missing out! Keep taking your flu shots, rx prescriptions, over the counter pain relievers…that does a number on your body. You keep pumping all that garbage while scenar users most live drug/medicine free. This is by far the most effective pain therapy I’ve ever experienced in my life time.

    Jenny said:
    December 20, 2014 at 9:32 am

    For treating diseases I’m unsure as this is all new to me. My daughter deals with asthma and husband deals with osteoarthritis…so we’ll see how this is for treating that. Time will tell and will let you know.

    Jenny said:
    December 20, 2014 at 9:40 am

    As for the Scenar to be a waste of money and a gimmick….lol people are so wrong to say this. Wasting my money for me was putting it all into therapy and have no positive outcome. I’m not saying its a waste for other people but for my cond. nothing was working for me. The treatment only cost me $60….$60 well spent, save my sanity, pain free and will forever use Scenar. I hope one day you’ll get to use this amazing little device and you can feel and see first hand what it does. 🙂

      rationalbrain responded:
      December 20, 2014 at 8:27 pm

      So the question still remains – why no decent testing of this device, and why have regulators in (at least) the USA and Australia come down hard on those selling the devices? They have been told they can’t make unsubstantiated claims. So if they are so great, why don’t they just do the testing, and they can go on and make their millions.
      Just doesn’t make any sense to me.
      Avoiding scrutiny is my suspicion.
      Jenny, do you have any financial interest in scenar?

        Jenny said:
        December 26, 2014 at 9:17 am

        I just ordered my scenar device because it seems to be the only thing that helps with taking away my pain. I also am going to use it for treating other ailments within my family. 2nd day of having it I’m now almost at level 1-2 for pain. I can now continue with my normal daily activities.

        rationalbrain responded:
        December 26, 2014 at 6:36 pm

        Yes, well, you didn’t really address my previous comments, which makes me think you’re doing an advertisement instead of giving your views.
        I ask again, do you have any financial interest in scenar? More specifically, do you sell the devices, or, provide treatments?
        I’ll take another avoidance of the question as an affirmative.

    Richard Sierakowski said:
    December 20, 2014 at 12:37 pm

    People under the influence of hypnosis can undergo major surgery without anaesthesia. The power of placebo can enable those in pain and discomfort to to overcome these feelings it just requires the appropriate item to trigger a placebo response. The real tragedy is that this is easily exploited by unscrupulous people for financial gain. Just follow the money and see who benefits from promoting these products.

    Richard

    Lary Johns said:
    December 29, 2014 at 6:08 pm

    Hmmmm, so a perception of relief of pain and restoration of function through scenar devices for many people means nothing without a double-blind scientific study and the blessing of some bureaucratic agency funded and manipulated heavily by big pharma. Lets see, I believe there are a long, long list of double-blind, FDA approved drugs and devices that have passed scientific rigors, only to later be proven in real life use to be largely ineffective at best, and plain-out deadly at worst. In fact, the “monthly” prices of some of these “proven” drugs and devices so far exceeded the one time cost of some scenar devices that your arguments about wasted money are almost comical. AT LEAST, the scenar devices never killed anyone… say that about Vioxx, Fen-Phen, DES, Cerivastatin, Bextra, Rezulin, Seldane, PPA, Posicor, etc, etc… KILLERS all…. and they all passed your precious double-blind scientific studies and FDA approval. I think I’ll stick with a scenar if it “magically” relieves my pain, thank you.

      rationalbrain responded:
      December 29, 2014 at 6:14 pm

      Well it’s your money.
      Let me know when it cures any disease. But you won’t, because it can’t.
      And BTW, how do you think the errors were eventually picked up? No one said science was perfect, but it’s self-correcting, and it was epidemiological studies that eventually showed the higher risk than benefit for some medications.
      Unlike your magical solution. If it’s never studied, it’s all just wishful thinking.
      As I’ve said endlessly, let me know when it cures any of the diseases it claims to.

    Churl said:
    December 29, 2014 at 6:24 pm

    I would just like to point out a few observations that I’ve made:

    1. For most people it’s how you speak and your appearance that will determine whether they believe what you say not; rational thought means nothing to them. The film “Thank you for smoking” is an excellent example of this. Likely many of the comments are made by people of a similar profession to the main character of the film mentioned above.

    2. Many people use intuition/instinct/initial hypothesis followed by conclusion as their entire thought process. So using a logical thought process is simply foreign to them. No point coming up with a rational argument, it’s a different language to them.

    3. Some people attach their self-worth to being or appearing correct. You might see the pain in someones eyes when they finally understand that they’re wrong and you know they know it. Even if you’ve been very gentle in your explanation.

    4. People fail to realise that science is the search for truth which involves intensive investigation and requires reproducible results and that pride and ego have no place in it. They also either dismiss and simplify in their minds the things they don’t understand or worse are taken in and baffled by ideas that they don’t understand.

    5. You might have already done this but some forums have rules for commenting like:

    – Must be constructive, rational and include sources for any claims that are not widely known to be fact.
    – Simple statements without basis will not be accepted.
    – Repeated failure to follow guidelines will result in banning.

    Hope this helps,

    I really wish they taught rational thought or logic in school. I think I need to open one.

      rationalbrain responded:
      December 29, 2014 at 6:50 pm

      I wish you luck with that! It’s badly needed.

    Lary Johns said:
    December 30, 2014 at 2:11 am

    It is interesting to me that so many supposedly “rational thinkers” and scientists hold the results of double-blind and scientific epidemiological studies in such high esteem, almost a religious fervor to the exclusion of acceptance of anything else. Some rather horrific biased or profit-driven studies have been conducted over the years and accepted by misguided bureaucratic agencies or governments. Take for example the “wonderful” scientific work of Dr. Josef Mengele. Scientific, yes. Double-blind, yes. Deadly, to an extreme. Evil, yes. But it was carried out with scientific fervor.

    Or take the dozens and dozens of “biased” studies that have been perpetrated by big pharma to get and hold on to approvals for drugs that have subsequently proven to harm or kill. You would think your outrage for the BILLIONS of dollars these pharma companies sucked from innocent victims would at least be as high as your outrage for whatever money those “scenar hucksters” have extracted. But no, they jumped through the double-blind, “put a scientist to work” treadmill, so surely those treatments are more efficacious. I once heard a saying that seems to apply here…. there is nothing so costly as a closed mind.

    And NO, I have nothing to do with the scenar industry, never made a penny off them and never will. But I have found that they relieve pain in many instances, and I do believe that Interested Dude (above) has made a decent effort to explain the correlation of pain relief to systemic health.

      rationalbrain responded:
      December 30, 2014 at 9:40 am

      “To the exclusion of anything else”… so what else is there? Blind acceptance of the claims of Joe Bloggs from Hicksville USA? Or your aunt who instantly felt better? Or they guy selling the magic box and/or treatment?
      Yes, that’s a much more rational way to go.
      Your argument is totally inconsistent (and by the way, you know you’re struggling with your argument when you invoke the Nazis! Scientific? Where did he publish his results for peer review? In this respect, there is a good correlation with scenar. Double-blind? Are you sure about that, or does it suit your argument?). You blast big pharma for their cheating, yet you give scenar a free pass. Why? Yep, some big pharma cheated, so what the hell, let’s let everyone cheat everyone else. Wonderful society.
      I don’t think you have heard that saying (the closed mind thing) – I think you just made it up to support your weak argument.
      How is it a closed mind to ask how scenar could possibly cure diabetes? Or should I just shut up and give you my money? Is that how things work? A closed mind is one which is not open to asking questions. And I’m asking you: do you have any evidence of ANYONE every having been cured of a disease using scenar? Just one example would do. I’ve been asking this question for years now, and getting all sorts of outrage from the likes of you, yet you won’t put the data where your mouth is. I’m completely open to receiving this evidence, and I will change my mind. Fair enough? But you can’t provide it can you. You won’t even look at it, because you fear what the result might be.
      I have stipulated numerous times in this thread that there is some plausibility to the pain relief thing, but any more than that? – I still call bullshit.
      So if you can’t shed anymore light on the disease-curing claims of the scenar-faithful, then you’re just part of the obfuscation – let’s just put our heads in the sand and agree that it works, so that we feel better.
      As for religious fervour, I just have to laugh, sorry. Equating a quest for evidence/proof with religion is laughable and lazy. If ever there is anything the antithesis of religion, it’s the quest for truth. Science is not perfect, and industry is even less perfect (the two are not the same), but it’s the best tool we have for determining an approximation of the truth. The only other option is ‘the gospel according to Lary’.

    Richard Sierakowski said:
    December 30, 2014 at 11:22 am

    Religious fervour necessitates a mandatory belief in supernatural beings with no requirement as to any evidential basis of their existence. Holding that particular world view makes a person susceptible to the invitation to unquestioningly believe in non-existent things like magic cure all devices or snake oil medicines.

    Once all belief is stripped away all that is then left is reality which requires no belief at all,

    Richard

    Antonio U said:
    February 12, 2015 at 2:32 pm

    With these debates I think I’ll buy the SCENAR was undecided but no longer
    medicine is not an exact science so worth the experience and the good or bad testimonials.

    Linda C said:
    March 3, 2015 at 1:59 am

    I am responding as a Nurse Practioner who has a 24 year old daughter living with chronic pain.
    Firstly I would like to address some of the comments I have seen made, one about being the flu vaccine, In the UK the vaccine should work efficiently in around 50% of the population, In this last round of vaccinations it only worked in 3% of the population leading to a increase attending A&E, with respiratory illness and the death rate increased from flu related illness.
    When I initially trained at Southampton University Hospital in the late 1970s accupuncture was being successfully used for minor operations, and I have seen patients with post shingles pain who have responded very well to accupuncture.

    With reference to Australia and America cracking down heavily on the selling of these devices, I do not know but I do know that Boston University in tandem with an Australian University, decided to do a study on it. This was based on Scenar being used on Haiti people for pain management after the earthquake, and clinical staff being aware of improved moods in these people.. I have not seen the results of this study but am now keen too. Though Scenar is costly, I do not think it is as expensive as all the pharmaceutical contracts that the health services are tied to, and the cost to society of someone living with chronic pain is immense.

    How I found out about Scenar was through seeing a young patient (28) who has been wheel chair bound with pain. She now has a small electrical device implanted at the base of her spine which she controls with a hand held box, regulating the electrical impulses from pelvis to brain. She was seeing me because of a sprain because she was in a dance rehersal for the local theatre. I though this was amazing but thought there must be less invasive ways which led me to scenar.

    Which led me to Scenar for my daughter, who has chronic pain with flare ups which totally knock her off her feet and various other immune related illnesses. Prior to being on Scenar she was on 2700mg of Gabapentin/Neurotoin a day, 120mg to 240mg of codeine phosphate daily, 4grams Paracetamol daily. Ibrofen 1200mg dai;ly.

    The base of her spine had actually deviated to the left due to her now poor posture, the physiocould not work with this until the primary source of pain was resolved. The Gabapentin had caused her eyes to loose focus so she required prism spectacles. The ibprofen has caused gastric irritation and a bleed. She feels very demoralised by the medical profession.

    We were not hopeful when she started Scenar, but we were desperate.. Within four months and 10 treatments she had managed to cut down her Gabapentin to 300mg a day for five months, has weeks when she does not take codeine and is generally so much better in herself and even though the pain and Gabapentin are increasing again, having had respite from her pain has allowed her time to enjoy and plan life. She starts her Masters in October, has managed to volunteer in an orphanage in Africa for a month, she has held down a job to save for her studies. Prior to this she received a disability allowance. She no longer wears prism spectacles due to the gabapentin side effects.

    Illness can be cyclical but in my daughters case she was becoming more and more unwell, so I have saved again to send her on another course of life changing treatment, which is approved and licenced for painn control in the UK.

      rationalbrain responded:
      March 3, 2015 at 9:42 am

      I’m glad your daughter has found some relief.
      As I’ve said before, I accept that scenar could provide some minor pain relief. What I do not accept is that can cure disease, which practitioners claim it can do.
      What concerns me about it is the total and utter lack of any testing. Where are these studies that people and the websites speak of. In most cases, the websites just claim a study is being done, expecting that no-one will follow up. If you find anything, I’d love to take a look – but as yet, no one that I’ve challenged to provide evidence has come forward.
      Just a couple of things – acupuncture has been proven time and again to trade simply on the placebo effect. There can be no argument there – there is no effect other than in the mind. If that gives relief, then great.
      Also, unfortunately the UK has a sordid history with quack treatments, have established homeopathic hospitals. In keeping with their name, these places are much more effective if you never go in the front door. Happily, the UK is now leading the way in condemning this bogus therapy. Australia has its share of quack institutions too – I’d be willing to bet that the partner to Boston is Southern Cross University – a privately funded institution that relies on charging high fees for a range of quack medicine, so naturally all of their research tends to support it.
      Also, Scenar is completely different from implanted electrodes for stimulation,as you would know from your training. The latter is a proven therapy, applying stimulation directly to nerves, and is done all over the body, including the brain. Scenar is of course applied to the skin, and provides a very minor warming effect and nothing else as far as I can tell. In order to penetrate the skin and fat layers, you would need significant electrical current – which these things have no hope of providing, and which would probably damage the skin.
      That said, I do hope your daughter’s condition continues to improve.

    Dave said:
    May 16, 2015 at 1:27 pm

    The main thing that concerns me about this product is the potential harm it could do. How can you be sure the impulses are not carcinogenic in any way? I tried it for 5 minutes and although it felt good, I was very concerned that it might create a bigger problem for me, so I stopped.

    It may work for you (placebo or not, doesn’t matter in my book), but until there is strong longitudinal study that suggests that it does not harm you in any way (which there is not from what I can see) I would stay well away.

      rationalbrain responded:
      May 16, 2015 at 6:28 pm

      Hi Dave
      Wouldn’t have thought it could be carcinogenic in any way – there’s only enough energy in it for some moderate heating, that’s about it – no cell damage really possible. I think the bulk of the harm is to the hip-pocket nerve, as well as the false hope given to sufferers of real diseases.

        Dave said:
        May 16, 2015 at 7:05 pm

        Fair enough and thanks for the reply.

        When the practitioner was using the device on my neck I liked the feeling and asked him to keep turning it up. It started making muscles around my neck spasm and although it felt weird, it was kind of relieving in a novel way. The next day, however, I felt no different. If I am certain it does no harm to have it that high, I will try it again.

        I think placebo effects are great for anxiety/neurotic based physical ailments (e.g., irritable bowel, chronic pain, muscle related ailments) which is what I am prone to. But I agree with you about suffers of real diseases. They require evidence based treatments.

    Rob said:
    August 22, 2015 at 3:28 am

    Dear Mr Rational Brain

    This is an interesting thread to me because I’m thinking of getting a SCENAR device. The point I am about to make may have been made and, if so, please consign this entry to your waste bin.

    I believe that it is realistic to say that the truth about anything is always a double sided coin. One side of the coin of truth says that Mr Rational Brain is absolutely correct when he demands carefully conducted clinical trials and hard evidence proving that a particular health gadget works. Anecdotal evidence will not do. This type of thinking is entirely valid in the level of reality where outcomes are predictable.

    However, there is a level of reality within which outcomes absolutely must occur to consciousness as a surprise. In this level of reality, consciousness, or more correctly, unconsciousness, is always a vital part of the equation leading to truth. Faith and not proof is most important on the other side of the coin of truth. In this level of reality, consciously derived hard evidence, clinical trials and statistics can actualy hamper the way to a desired outcome which must appear as a surprise.

    The surprising level of reality is illustrated in proverbs. It is said that ‘Pride comes before a fall’. It is good to have some pride in yourself, but you can go too far. The Goldilocks ‘just right’ tipping point is exceeded and the overly proud egotistical person is surprised to be humiliated. It is ‘unconsciousness’ that creates the probability for ‘the fall’. If the humiliation is anticipated, it doesn’t happen. Mr RationalBrain would call proverbs old wives tales and he would be totaly right…..within his level of world functioning. But in the inherently surprising level of reality ‘the opposites’ cycle and catch people unawares.

    Now the behaviour of technological things, like SCENAR devices can be predicted using the reasoning of Mr Rational Brain. But the human body isn’t the sum of its parts. It is not like a technological item. Rather the human body is some kind of holistic, mysterious, self organizing entity that has consciousness and life. It is an entity within which diseases and ailments have the possibility for entering spontaneous remission. ‘Spontaneous’ means happening for no reason that can be traced to a cause. A spontaneous remission must be a surprising event. Supposing there was a strategy for getting nice surprises. Supposing their was a machine that did not produce predictable results when hooked up to a human body. Instead, the device produced a high probability for surprising spontaneous remmissions. It might be that the SCENAR is such a device. From what I know at the moment, feedback between the body and the machine is involved and there is no WAY to predict or prove the outcome consciously. The trial and error feedback Is THE WAY to the probability for a surprising spontaneus remmission.

    If you own a SCENAR device and your faith surprises you with a spontaneous healing, my advice would be to go your way and tell no man……..unless he asks…..then tell him!

    Rob

      rationalbrain responded:
      August 22, 2015 at 5:49 pm

      Rob
      I rarely consign anything to the bin – only once or twice when the abuse has been extreme.
      I’m afraid you’re playing the ‘it’s too complicated, we can’t every possibly understand it’ card, which I reject instantly. It’s just religion in another guise – you know, ‘the mystery’.
      What really annoys me about this approach is that it’s lazy. And it’s boring. Instead of seeking an approximation of the truth, you are just giving up: “It’s sooo mysterious” you say. Bollocks. We know a lot about the human body and how it works. Ok, consciousness is still unknown, but give us time. What we do know it how the body responds to various stimuli – like what we put in our mouths or inject into our arms. Because we can measure the change in various parameters.
      Bottom line is, if we can’t sense a change in our body, then we can’t measure it – and then it may as well not have happened. That’s the case with scenar and its claims about healing of disease.
      It’s ok if you want to do faith-based medicine, but, just like religion, don’t expect me to share your fantasy.
      rb

    Rob said:
    August 23, 2015 at 11:13 pm

    rb, You have failed to understand me and it is my fault because I failed to explain my point adequately. I’ll have another go since we are having this friendly gesture with each other.

    What I have to say is not as complicated as you suggest and with any luck it might provoke a paradigm shift on your part. Paradigm Shifts are never easy because I know from personal experience that ‘what you do unto my ideas, you do unto me’. But its no big deal whichever way things turn out.

    My point is that there are different ‘levels’ of functioning in the world each requiring a different type of knowledge to describe them. I would suggest that the thing people do routinely is to apply one particular type of knowledge to the wrong level of reality. This, rb, is what you might be doing in regards to the scenar device.

    Let’s consider the ‘levels’ of reality I know about. I can think of four:

    1. Take the quantumn theory of atoms. There is a special type of knowledge involving an uncertainty principle that applies to this microscopic level.

    2. Then there is the ‘level’ of big things like tables and chairs. Quantum theory does not apply to big things even though big things are made up of atoms. Big things need a different type of knowledge to describe their behaviour. This different knowledge we call Newtonian Science. Now the rational brain, imbued with scientific knowedge, reasons that if we have an infinite amount of information at an instant in time, we can predict everything that will ever happen. The rational brain says that everything is predictable and provable by tracing the chains of causes and effects as they occur between the parts of things and governed always by the known scientific laws of interaction. In other words everything is inherently predictable.

    2. Newtonian Science is mistaken when it implies that every event is predictable and this is highlighted by the new Chaos Theory. Chaos Theory requires an entirely new type of knowledge that contradicts Newtonian understanding. Chaos Theory shows us that energy systems far from equilibrium can reach an unpredictable tipping point where the system changes abruptly from a linear mode that can be described from the level of its parts, to a turbulent mode that can only be described globally, holistically or from the perspective of the whole. Ok, so far I’ve outlined 3 types of knowledge that are required to describe three separate types of world funcioning.

    4. Now, in my view, there is a 4th level of functioning which we can call ‘daily life on the planet’. I maintain that, in common with Quantum Theory, this level of reality has an uncertainty principle that no-one takes into account. In other words, in spite of all the routines we see around us, the world wants to surprise us and will. What I’m saying is that within the dynamic processes of daily life, the predictability of routine linear processes can give way suddenly to a global or holistic self organizing principle who’s outcome must occur as a surprise. Take the proverb ‘The road to hell is paved with good intentions’. From the perspective of Newtonian level knowledge, this proverb is an old wive’s tale. However, good intentions are obviously good…..UP TO A POINT. Go beyond that point and you are in a different ball game which is holistically rigged and which will end in total disaster. This is a pattern of development that has repeated itself endlessly throughout the ages but for which there can be no proof but only hindsight. Scientific trials to prove or disprove the proverb are pointless because the outcome MUST happen as a surprise.

    The weird behaviour of the 4th level of reality is known to some scientists who study the biosphere of the earth. These scientists have discovered something quite astonishing. It is known that the earth’s atmosphere is created by the gasses given off by the processes of living and dying on the planet. The weird thing is that although the nature of the flora and fauna has changed radically over the ages, the atmosphere has somehow maintained itself within the very tight parameters necessay for life to continue. It has created this atmospheric ‘ordered structure’ in the face of the third law of thermodynamics which states that entropy or disorder is always increasing. Why hasn’t the earth long since shuffled off into a state where life has become impossible? In the face of this miracle the scientists have called earth ‘the Goldilocks Planet’ or the planet that self regulates itself to be ‘just right’ for life. At this point some people, much to the annoyance of rational brains everywhere, begin referring to the biosphere as being governed by the Goddess Gaia. This, however, is just a manner of speaking about an ineffable process that cannot and never will be accounted for by Newtonian Science. The homeostasis of the earth’s atmosphere cannot be explained from the level of the earth’s parts, so Newtonian Science and rationality can have nothing to say about the matter. Gaia is just a name given to a holistic globally opperating self regulating system. The Goddess represents the spontanious healing response of the planet.

    I’m now going to further provoke rationalbrain by suggesting that the ‘Gaia’ of the body is ‘the soul’. And the ‘soul’ can be distorted or dislodged by an injury or by a hard blow and you can apparantly lose contact with your soul. When these events occur, neurotic syptoms or disease can emerge. The sufferer is then left with an unsolvable problem. It can’t be fixed. The problem can’t be solved. Rationalbrain puts great emphasis on problem solving but it doesn’t work in the 4th level of reality. The solution ALWAYS becomes the new problem. In modern medicine, the proffered solution is invariably followed by ‘side effects’…..ALWAYS. Nothing works and even if it appears to work, it is only for a time….and then it fails…..EVERYTHING!

    If modern medicine doesn’t kill you, there may come a point where the expert physicians may send you home saying there is nothing else we can do. What then? In my view it is now time to ‘take hold of the stone the builders are rejecting’. The scenar device might be that ‘stone’. Why do I say this? BECAUSE THE SCENAR IS SO WEAK IT CAN’T ‘DO’ A THING FOR YOU. THAT IS WHY IT HAS THE BEST CHANCE OF TRIGGERING THE NATURAL HEALING OF THE BODY. The Scenar device is the scientific rational brain’s homage to the independant sef-regulating ‘soul’ of the body. It is a Goldilocks machine. The Scenar is programmed with a value for a body parameter that is ‘just right’ for ideal functioning. When it finds a discrepency within a sick body, it eners into a feedback ‘dialogue’ with the body. In a series of feedback steps it nudges the physical body towards the value of the of the ‘just right’ parameter. At a given moment the body becomes ‘available’ to the body’s own ‘just right’ self-regulating healing response or ‘soul’ (for want of a better word). Because the approach of the Scenar has been ‘just right’, the body (which we can now call Goldilocks) escapes from the Three Bears (the pain and disease) that wanted to eat her alive. So the Scenar itself does nothing but facilitate the ‘soul’.

    In the fourth level of reality there can be no proof or evidence that the above explanation is how the Scenar device works. So my explanation boils down to the parable of the sower where some seed may fall on stony ground, some may fall among thorns, but some seed may fall on good ground where it will spring up and create a paradigm shift in the person. And there is no way in this world to predict what might happen in each individual case. Some people have ears to hear, others don’t.

    After the scenar has facilitated our souls maybe we could invent a scenar to facilitate the soul of the whole planet ….perhaps a more advanced spirit catcher than a didgeridoo.

    I can just see rationalbrain choking on all this fantasy. He wants evidence and solid proof goddamit! Trust him to want summin that can’t be given.

    Rob

      rationalbrain responded:
      August 24, 2015 at 10:00 am

      Yes, well, you’re right, I’m choking. So many flaws in your taxonomy I don’t know where to start.
      It seems like you’re using ‘levels of reality’ just to make it all sound mystical. It’s not. It’s just a description of reality, and approximations at that.

      Yes there is chaos, but nothing that can’t be described by our knowledge of the world. So that doesn’t help you explain how scenar works. And really, chaos theory is old hat, and not distinct from classical newtonian physics. It’s a simply a case of non-linear processes, which can, by the way, be described mathematically.

      Your 4th ‘level’ is just an example of motivated reasoning so that you have something to hang your scenar hat on. There’s no mystery. You seem to invoke homeostasis as some sort of magical thing, outside the other levels. Why? It’s a well know phenomenon which is entirely understood. It’s also known as negative feedback, in which changes in output feed back into the system to adjust it back to some equilibrium level. It works for the planet, and it works exceptionally well for the human body. In fact, it’s one reason that minute energy applied by scenar, acupressure, homeopathy, can’t really work to cure anything – they can’t easily ‘hack’ the homeostatic process. A second reason is that homeostasis is exceedingly complex, and simplistic solutions like little electric currents, (like anti-oxidants for example), are of negligible value.

      I simply don’t accept that I want something that ‘can’t be given’. That’s just a dodge by people who believe things on faith. If a process affects the physical world, then I should be able to measure the effect on the physical world. It’s just that with scenar, I can’t see any effects on the physical world claimed by proponents, hence I question it’s efficacy. Simple.

      I ask people like you to show me the measurements, and then I’ll change my mind – but you never do. Instead, you appropriate the words of science an make up some bullshit framework to justify your fantasies. Because that is all you have in the absence of any real world effects.

      Please, no more lectures.
      rb

    Rob said:
    August 25, 2015 at 2:15 am

    rb, Do you realise what this thing we are doing really is? Its remote bio-feedback! Can I ask you to think of me as the Scenar? You can be the disease. WAIT A COTTON PICKIN MINUTE, don’t fly off the handle. Get a grip man. Its not your fault that you are the ‘disease’. There’s no shame in it. You can’t help being infected by a half truth for God’s sake. No-one is getting at you.

    Incidently, can I also appologise profusely for the lecture in my last post. I went way over-the-top and broke the Goldilocks ‘just enough’ or ‘just right’ principle. For that sin I may have blown it. You didn’t ask to be enlightened about your stance in this matter. You stood there self-righteously demanding the evidence and, of course, you met only resistance. If, instead, you ask a question sincerely, the answer is likely to be forthcoming. Remember that when Parcival reaches the Grail Castle for the first time he doesn’t ask about the grail, so doesn’t receive an answer. It is only later that a question is asked and he is given the meaning of the Grail. In the Gospels the parable of the sower is the only one that is eplained. This is because someone asks a question about it. What you need to do now is ask: What is wrong with my dogmatic stance on the Scenar? No-one is forcing you or asking you to abandon your position. I’m merely asking you to losen up and question it. The answer you get might confirm your position or it might surprise you…who knows?

    Ok, it falls to me in my role as the Scenar to edge you, in small ‘just right’ steps and using your own rationality, towards the possibility of a paradigm shift. As I see it, the sticking point for you is your belief that there need be no mystery in the world. You believe that the sum total of human knowledge is ever increasing, enabling us to understand more and more in order to solve more of the world’s problems. Your position is that our increasing knowledge is bannishing ‘mystery’ from the world and this is a good thing. I say ‘balls’ to that….in the nicest possible way. I didn’t get where I am today by being rude. My stance would be that problem solving simply creates more problems. Jesus said: What man, by taking thought, can increase his stature by one cubit. Knowledge is mostly all bollocks….which leaves us with the profound mystery of the world.

    In response to my last post you tried to bannish ‘mystery’ from chaos theory, thus demonstrating to me that you don’t understand chaos theory. Imagine the information needed to describe each instant of an evolving turbulent energy system to be represented as a dot. As the chaotic system evolves, the dots appear one by one randomly at first. But as time goes by a pattern emerges which is the famous ‘strange (or mysterious) attractor’. We discover in astonishment that there is order or pattern within chaos. Further more, the strange attractor now tells us that the chaotic system is governed holistically instead of from the level of its parts. These things are total mysteries. No-one understands them. Don’t kid yourself that they do. They don’t.

    The origin of ‘pattern’ and ‘structure’ in the universe is a complete mystery. There shouldn’t be any (except for spheres which are created by gravity). Think of a snooker table with all of the balls set up in their initial pattern. The que ball is struck and the balls are scattered. If three balls wound up in a straight line you would be surprised. If 6 balls made a regular pattern you’d be dumfounded. If the original arrangement appeared you would fall off your chair. Patterns tend to descend into increasing randomness. If any patterns emerge, the rational brain says they are pure chance events.

    But the world is choc full of ‘pattern’ and ‘structure’. But what are the chances of you finding a watch on a beach that had somehow made itself? What are the chances of a human body retaining its recognizable structure for 70 odd years in the face of the law of entropy? What holds it together? The rational brain thinks that a plan for the construction of a whole body is contained in the genome in every cell. It ain’t no scene like that Bro. The genome contains simple instructions for how cells replicate and interact. So how does a gene in a body cell know where it is and how to give instructions for building that particular organ? Who or what gives it that info? It can only be a holistically opperating self-organizing principle within the body….a soul that derministic science knows absolutely nothing about. The Scenar, which is me remember, points a finger towards a subtle mystery that can confer new life to the body. Unlike strange attractors that can be plotted and seen, there can be no evidence for the self-organizing principle of the body…except possibly in dreams. What we can say is that it can only be invoked by ‘just right’ stimulous. We know this because we live on a Goldilocks planet.

    Who knows where ‘interest’ comes from, rb. Some get it, some don’t. But if you have enough ‘interest’ to ask the right question and to ponder the mysteries, you may be walking on a sunny street or bending to tie your shoe lace when suddenly you will find yourself, in your head at least, living in a magical world. You might turn then and hurry back to place an order for a Scenar device. Or you might need to go on until your rationality and faith in science leads you into a ‘wasteland’. Some people need to get to the end of their tether before they ‘see’ the Truth.

    Rob

    Sorry, I’ve done it again….this is too long……

      rationalbrain responded:
      August 25, 2015 at 9:42 am

      Rob, if you have something specific to say, just say it. Spare me the preaching and the hippy-holistic-truth-mystery-technobabble.
      You ask me to ‘loosen up and question’ scenar. If you’ve read the articles on this blog that’s exactly what I have done, time after time. Question. Trouble is, no one is answering with anything other than ‘just believe’. Exactly as you are doing.
      So by all means, enjoy scenar, and also enjoy contributing to this bogus industry built on keep the gullibles on the hook with the ‘universe is mysterious’ line.
      Happy to discuss anything specific, but I’m not going to dissect every logical fallacy you throw up.

    Rob said:
    August 28, 2015 at 12:40 am

    rb, you are absolutely right, I’ve been beating about the bush and shooting off at tangents. I need to stop all these ‘trips around the houses’ and get down to ‘brass tacks’ and ‘grasp the nettle’. There has been too much waffling on my part and I admit it. You want something you can get your teeth into and who can blame you….certainly not me. Some people go on and on and on, never getting to the point. What’s the point of that. There is no point….that’s the point!

    I think we can boil this down and settle this matter once and for all. You want solid evidence involving double blind trials that the Scenar device works. This seems reasonable. However I have a feeling that your requirement is impossible to deliver. Who is right?

    I think we can find out who is right by asking a simple question about the human body. I think we can agree that no-one can construct a body from scratch. No-one can even manufacture a seed. The body constructs itself. How does it do that? As I understand it the genetic code or ‘blue print’ for constructing the whole body is contained in every cell. And all the cells renew themselves from time to time. But here is the crucial and specific question that you are looking for: HOW DOES A CELL KNOW WHERE IT IS IN THE BODY IN ORDER TO CONSTRUCT THAT PARTICULAR BODY PART. WHO OR WHAT GIVES IT THAT INFORMATION? THE ANSWER IS COMPLICATED BY THE FACT THAT THE GENOME CODES ONLY FOR SIMPLE BRANCHING INSTRUCTIONS AND FOR HOW CELLS REPLICATE THEMSELVES

    Can I remind you of the question I posed before? What are the chances of finding a watch on a beach that had, by some freak of chance, made itself? The odds are not impossible, but they are overwhelmingly unlikely. Now the body is far more complex than a watch and yet it makes a complex homeostatic living being all by itself. Rational brains would say that the watch needed a builder. But who is the builder of the body if you cannot answer the question above? If the genome isn’t the builder, is there a ‘ghost in the machine’ in a similar way that a strange attractor is the ‘ghost’ in a turbulent energy system?

    Leave it with you, rb. The good news is that you can search the internet or confer with your doctor, surgeon or friendly local biologist. If you come up with an answer, let me know. I will be ‘all ears’. What ever you do don’t cop out and fall back on your original demand for evidence. Let us establish first the kind of entity the Scenar pedlars are claiming to heal.

    Rob

      rationalbrain responded:
      August 28, 2015 at 1:24 pm

      Rob
      I’ll admit I almost stopped reading after your second para. How on earth is my requirement impossible to deliver? That’s just a convenient dodge for those unwilling to subject their beliefs to independent verification. I’m not going to discuss this further.
      I kept reading because I’m fascinated by people who spout the ‘digital watch in the forest’ fallacy, or whatever version you have. Have you not heard of evolution, or do you just deny it? If the latter, then I suggest you read up on it. It tells us perfectly clearly how complexity arises over time. Your watch story is completely fallacious for a number of reasons, not least of which it is not a living organism which can adapt. And even it it were, there would need to be adaptive pressures for it to change. That is the example enjoyed by the intelligent design movement and their mantra of ‘irreducible complexity’. They have long since moved on from watches on beaches, and look for IC in nature. You might recall that they chose the bacterial flagellum as their best example of IC, and yet even that is now on the intelligent design scrap heap. Even a US found that it was a bogus argument, and tossed it out.
      Yes, the watch needs a designer and builder, and we have humans for that. And biology has evolution for that purpose and we have an incredible amount of evidence for that. Yes there are still some mysteries in how cells organise themselves, and we’ll work it out sooner or later, but it’s not as mysterious as you simplistically suggest. And it’s certainly not a case of ‘god did it’ – unless you have strong evidence for it.
      I suggest you do some reading on evolutionary biology before concluding that ‘god did it’. But I suspect that reading may reveal information you don’t want to hear. Also, I’m not an expert in it, so don’t propose to debate you on the merits of evolution – but there’s plenty of good reading on this subject, so go for it.
      The only relevance of this discussion to scenar is that it’s as bogus as your watchmaker fallacy.
      So if you can’t provide evidence of scenar efficacy, then I’m afraid no amount of hand-waving can convince anyone with the slightest bit of clear thinking on these matters.
      rb

    Rob said:
    August 29, 2015 at 1:09 am

    rb
    Yes I have heard of evolution and I don’t deny it. It is a half truth and I’ll tell you why. ‘Time’ is the problem. No one can say how life began in the original warm primeval swamp, but having begun, evolution has proceeded on the basis of the random mutation of genes and natural selection as evidenced by the survival of the fittest. What is said to occur is that a gene might randomely mutate in an animal and this might improve an ear or an eye or a gut. This animal would have an advantage over those animals without the mutation and the latter would die out. These chance advantageous mutations, over time, are said to have added up slowly, driving the living slime in the warm swamp on a developmental journey which has culminated in the complex creatures we see today.

    Someone did a thought experiment and imagined a chimp tapping randomly at a typewriter. Logically the chimp would eventually type out the complete works of Shakespear if bits of matching type were continually added together as they appeared. The whole process was programmed into a computer and it was discovered that it would take longer than the age of the universe. Since the human body is more complex than the complete works of Shakespear it would be nonsense to suggest that the similar evolutionary process, by itself, could account for complex life forms. I think it is now accepted that there must have been occassional quantum leaps in the evolutionary process of a type illustrated by a caterpillar suddenly turning into a butterfly. Nearly everyone understands and accepts the random mutation and natural selection process but no-one can grasp the need for evolutionary metamorphosis. So evolution is certainly not ‘the builder’ of the body. There is room also for a ‘ghost in the machine’. I don’t call this ‘ghost’ a benevolent God. In my mind it is just some kind of self-organizing principle that cannot be described from the level of the parts. This ‘ghost in the machine’ makes the body more than the sum of its parts. It is the ‘ghost’ inside us all that differentiates the living body from a mechanical thing like a robot.

    In a sense, the evolutionary process is repeated in every living body from conception to maturity. But the genome is not ‘the builder’ of the body. As I explained, the genome in every cell supplies only simple switching on and off instructions together with simple branching and replicating instructions. Who or what activates and coordinates these gene processes is not known. It may be down to ‘the ghost in the machine’ which, in turn, could be described as a living ‘information’ repository with an ‘intent’ of its own. But all this is just a manner of speaking about internal processes that are, dare I say it, mysterious.

    All rational processes point to the possibility of a ‘ghost in the machine’ and if this is true and the scenar with its ‘just right’ stimulous taps into this self-oganizing principle within the body, then you will definitely not get the ‘evidence’ for efficacy that you seek. I could explain this further but perhaps at this moment it would be too much information.

    Rob

      rationalbrain responded:
      August 29, 2015 at 6:36 pm

      Rob
      If I might say, what a load of bullshit. Sorry to be blunt.
      I have no time for ‘evolution is a half truth’. You are simply denying it.
      And the ghost in the machine is also a cop out.
      Babbling about ‘just right stimulus’ ‘tapping into a self-organising principle’ is sheer motivated reasoning and frankly a load of technobabble. As you would know, in the absence of any real science, technobabble is the next resort.
      Unless you have anything evidence-based, or at least based on established principles of science (not pseudo science, or science-sounding), then I don’t think this conversation will lead to anything enlightening for anyone.
      Thanks for the exchange, but ultimately futile.

    Rob said:
    August 30, 2015 at 8:58 pm

    rb

    I agree with your conclusion that this exchange is ultimately futile. But before I go I can’t let you off the hook without pointing out something that you are entirely unaware of. We tend to see in others that which exists in ourselves, UNACKNOWLEDGED. In other words you are unconsciously projecting onto me the very things that you are guilty of.

    I’m not ‘denying’ evolution or ‘real science’. Quite the reverse. I say those things are half truths, which they certainly are. You are the one in ‘denial’. You deny that some energy systems could be more than the sum of their parts and you deny flatly that it is entirely feasable to suspect a ‘ghost in the machine’. What else are you to conclude man? Your mind will not go there. You deny that there is any unsolvable mystery attached to life. In your total onesidedness, you are the one talking bullshit and technobabble. You are the one who is ‘copping out’. You just cannot see that in denying the wonder and mystery of the world and the inherent unpredictability of life you have been radicallized into a set of ideas that really are a set of half truths. A person in that condition might remain a danger to himself or close family, but in a position of power, that person could destroy everything that we hold dear. You would do this by thinking that something could actually be done directly to solve our most pressing problems. In taking this view, you would be living proof that ‘The road to hell is paved with good intentions’

    Wake up rb, before it is too late…….for you and possibly for us all.

    all the best…rob

      rationalbrain responded:
      August 31, 2015 at 10:38 am

      Oh dear, you’re really starting to sound paranoid now. And like all good paranoiacs, you alone know ‘the truth’, right?
      To sum up, I will agree with one thing you said in your last offering of word-salad: I don’t think there is any ‘unsolvable’ mystery attached to life (although I would have said insoluble). However, there are plenty of UNSOLVED mysteries – that’s a big difference.
      That difference emphatically exposes the dishonesty of your posturing: calling me closed-minded, yet you are the one who believes in things that can’t be solved.
      My position is an optimistic one: we don’t know everything, but we will chip away until we do. Your position is essentially one of surrender – just give in and accept that things are mysterious. That’s just depressing.
      In the meantime, scenar still hasn’t been demonstrated to work, despite so many people knowing ‘the truth’. THAT’S mysterious.
      rb

        Art said:
        August 31, 2015 at 12:53 pm

        But is has been demonstrated to work. Some people believe it has helped them.

        If anyone claims that SCENAR is scientifically proven to work, then from what I have seen, that is a false claim. Science is not able to prove it works – and from what i can see, it probably never will. This does not mean, however, that it can not help some people.

        I think SCENAR is a bit like acupuncture. The ritual around using it, the placebo effect, the care, empathy, expertise and authority of the clinician administering the therapy all work together to create an effect – for some people (but not all). When you scientifically isolate some of those variables, the effect is then lost.

        I do not have a problem with that, so long as someone does not carelessly use it to treat a serious illness that could have been easily dealt with medically. If you are a SCENAR practitioner, then it is important to be upfront with people. Say “I believe this can help”, which is a true statement. But please, do not tell people its scientifically proven.

        So far as proof/science/mystery and dare I say, Rationality goes, I think it is important not to be too rigid.

        rationalbrain responded:
        August 31, 2015 at 4:23 pm

        That’s reasonable Art, except that proponents DO claim it can heal also sorts of diseases – my favourite example being diabetes. Sure it’s harmless for muscle aches, and the patient gets the ‘lab coat’ effect, but for other significant illnesses, beware.
        Your second para interests me. You can conclude it’s likely to be a false claim from what you haven’t seen, not what you have seen – and that’s any testing. In my view, if science can’t measure an effect, then the effect probably doesn’t exist. If we can measure placebo effect, and we can, then we can certainly measure a real physical therapeutic effect.
        Trouble is, the proponents won’t subject it to real science because they know it doesn’t work for anything not susceptible to placebo effects.
        So people like Rob can bitch and moan all they like, but it’s a simple matter. If it can cure diabetes, then this can be easily measured. Why aren’t there any such measurements?
        The answer is self-evident.

      Rob said:
      September 1, 2015 at 1:39 am

      rb

      I’ve just had a tremendous insight that might be worth sharing before I go. You are going to love this….or not, as the case may be. My revelation is that I have been talking to a God. Hang on, hang on! This is all relevant to the Scenar and everything. I have been conversing with someone who denies the existence of God and the inherent unsolvable mystery of life, but who, nevertheless, has a God complex. This person, who shall be nameless rb, has the hubris of a God. He is so up himself that he is moved to say: ‘we don’t know everything, but we will chip away until we do’. So this man thinks of himself as an aspiring God…..the God of Rationality who will eventually know everything and solve all the mysteries. Anyone who threatens this unrealistic idea will be dismissed out of hand.

      The man possessed by a God complex would no doubt assert his omnipotence by declaring that he is the supreme ruler in the house of his spirit. However, this would be a mistaken view as was proven by the neurosurgeon Benjamin Libet. Libet was able to show that every one of us reponds to a stimulous a whole half second before we are even aware of the stimulous. The unconscious complex or self-organizing principle is first on the scene ahead of any realization that there is anything to respond to at all. So the average person has no will power and is driven by forces unknown from within. He is not a master in his own house, but is, in reality, a driven person, a puppet dancing to a tune sung by the inner psycholgical complex of one-sided ideas which is the God vortex. The possessed and unrealistic person will typically say: “These are my thoughts, I am creating them”. But this is just the illusion we all live under. It is the folly of man.

      Free will can only be demonstrated if the possessed person inhibits his natural responses or routines and replaces those with some other response or teaching. If he does not take responsibilty and acts on impulse, there is no free willl but only compulsion from within.

      Because the God of rationality is so one-sided there arises a compensation. For the man with the God complex who thinks we can chip away until we know everything and can then be in a position to personaly solve our problems, there will emerge a complex or self-organizing principle that works against all his passionately held beliefs and efforts. I think this resistance would appear in the pattern of development that is depicted vividly in the myth of Hercules fighting the monstrous multiheaded Hydra. For every ‘head’ big H chopped off two more ‘heads’ appeared on the body of the monster. The meaning? For every problem solved, two more will be created. For every demon bannished, two or three more rush in to take its place This is the story of world scientific progress which is actually no progress at all as is evident if you read the newspapers. If there is any progress it will always be in spite of all the accummulated knowledge and problem solving.

      The beauty of the Scenar device is that it issues a stimulous which doesn’t ‘do’ or ‘solve’ anything. The surprising thing is the number of people who report success with the device. What I believe it ‘does’ is activate, just like Benjamin Libet demonstrated, an inner unconscious response which is the self-healing ‘power’ of the body. In a manner of speaking one might say: ‘Of myself I do nothing, but it is the God within that heals me’. Because the stimulous from the Scenar is ‘just right’, not too much or not too little, the self healing is without side-effects. If I’ve understood the Scenar device correctly, I honestly believe that, with the addition of a simple mental technique that Herculese used to subdue the Hydra, it could have a high probability for healing diseases like diabetes

      Rob

        rationalbrain responded:
        September 1, 2015 at 8:59 am

        Bla bla bla.
        You can attack me all you like, but in your own words.. ‘what I believe it does‘. (and really? Inner unconscious response? Surely your parodying yourself!)
        I don’t give a shit what you believe. May as well be fairies.
        I’m more interested what you know, and how you know it.
        And if a god existed, I would hope it would have the brains to see that humans prefer actual knowledge to superstition.
        So yes, if you like, I am made in god’s image.
        That is what I ‘believe’.

    Art said:
    August 31, 2015 at 5:27 pm

    When you say: “In my view, if science can’t measure an effect, then the effect probably doesn’t exist”, is it safe for me to assume you mean “science” in the sense of an effect that a patient or doctor can report on?

    If science can’t measure an effect, then there is also the possibility that the measuring tools we are using are not sensitive enough to measure the effect.

    Note: If people have claimed that this machine can cure diabetes, then that is plain irresponsible. Besides, if it could cure diabetes, the food and soft drink manufacturers would be all over it!

      rationalbrain responded:
      August 31, 2015 at 5:43 pm

      No, I meant an effect which is objectively measureable, not self-reporting. Having said that, self-reporting can be valuable IFF done correctly – that is, properly blinded – for example, see my articles on Elmore Oil in which I reported on a blinded trial.
      With something like diabetes, we would of course be able to measure changes in body chemistry if it were cured.
      That is why the preponderance of ‘evidence’ for scenar is in that category of ailments known as the ‘symptoms of life’ – aches and pains. These tend to come and go and respond to different types of intervention and are not easily measured. It is therefore easy to suggest to someone that their scenar/elmore oil/homeopathy/acupuncture/chiropractic/goji berries/anti-oxidants/therapeutic touch/etc are doing the trick.
      My original article pointed to an example of the scam websites suggesting scenar can cure all. They are mainly Russian, and are sales focused. Naturally, the russians have all the answers when it comes to these therapies, and the west just hasn’t caught up yet!

    My Turn to be God said:
    September 1, 2015 at 9:31 am

    Rob, in normal circumstances I would say “shame on you” for trolling, however, your articulations are so beautiful that in my view, they trump your bad behaviour.

    RB, your rational and logic skills are well sharpened, however, I feel you would be more convincing if you were not so rigid.

    Black and white thinking always troubles me in whatever form it takes – whether its atheism, religious extremism, political ideology, environmentalism, dieting, etc All of the above are OK, when the exponents allow for shades of grey.

    After saying all that, one should not be too black and white about not being black and white 😉

      rationalbrain responded:
      September 1, 2015 at 12:07 pm

      Art
      I don’t think Rob’s trolling. He’s just found a platform for his ‘articulations’, and I have chosen to ‘bite’ instead of just letting him rant. Maybe I’m just bored. Maybe his sermons remind me too much of religious clap-trap, which I love to dissect.
      But I’m now interested in your view that I’m rigid. Is it because I’m not persuaded by vacuous hand-waving? Which part of Rob’s articulations would you have me agree with? That scenar actually works because he says so? That is activates some self-healing power? Show me that it does and I will believe it – why am I sceptical of this? Because the body’s own homeostasis fixes numerous ailments – so how does he know scenar has added anything to this? Answer – he doesn’t.
      I often use the example of baldness cures – it’s quite easy to convince people that this or that laser treatment works – because hair loss goes in cycles, and they know it. The power of confirmation bias ensures a never-ending stream of people taken in by this.
      And the same goes for aches and pains addressed by scenar.
      The number of testimonies cited by Rob is also meaningless. How many millions swear by homeopathy, and yet it is just water – and never cured anything but thirst.

      Yes, I’m rigid. I rigid in not being sucked in by common failures in our own perception. I’m rigid in not being persuaded because of numbers or qualifications or testimonies. I’m rigid in understanding how something works, and why it works, and how that fits in with our hard-fought understanding of the universe.
      And finally I’m rigid in following the evidence – which means if the evidence leads somewhere unexpected I will follow. That is, I’m willing to change my mind if the evidence is clear. It may seem that this is contradictory – but that is just the nature of science – it changes its mind when the evidence changes.
      This is in complete contrast to blind faith, where nothing changes, ever.

        Art said:
        September 1, 2015 at 1:16 pm

        I do not necessarily agree with anything Rob has said, I just like the way he expresses himself, and appreciate his sense of humour.

        Re: calling you rigid:

        Consider Father Christmas. Would you deny your children the magic of Christmas just for the sake of being rational?

        And if a person was facing death in a palliative care ward, and they wanted comfort and asked you to read out a prayer for them, would you refuse and instead serve them up some nice cold rationality?

        Being scientifically rigid is ok when it comes to some things (e.g., testing medical cures, engineering, etc – and this is where we are on the same page) but I think it is also important to be able to let go of it sometimes.

        rationalbrain responded:
        September 1, 2015 at 4:12 pm

        You’re making some big assumptions, and invalid comparisons.
        We’ve been talking about subjects which are susceptible to science. Santa is not. I love fairy tales and fantasy, if you’ve read any other parts of this blog. Just not for medical issues. To make your challenge valid you should be asking me whether I’d let Santa try to cure my child’s disease. Of course I would say no, unless of course his therapy has been proven.
        As for reading out a prayer, of course I’d read it. I’d respect their wishes. What’s the harm? It’s a tradition.
        I got married in a church because the rituals are cute, and not because I believe in god. Again, what’s the harm.
        You see what you’ve done? Conflated the scientific method with living life ethically and happily, and it’s a trick or fallacy that’s used to belittle anyone who strongly supports the scientific method – a kind of ad hominem. You don’t need to let go of the scientific method, you just need to deploy it appropriately. The two positions are not mutually exclusive – it’s a false dichotomy. I can live life happily and fully, and yet call out bullshit when I see it.
        I know you are just being devil’s advocate, but you are illustrating the issue with people like Rob – an absence of clear thinking, and twisting the notion of ‘rational’ to suit their argument. To people like Rob, if you refuse to agree with their (usually silly) proposition, you are inflexible. Well, put another way, why should I bend to any arbitrary belief just because someone shouts it loudly enough or strings together enough word salad?
        To my children, Santa is real and brings gifts. But he doesn’t cure diabetes.

      Rob said:
      September 2, 2015 at 4:56 pm

      Thank you God2 for your support. Thank God I can’t be accused of being too rigid because I have been at pains to point out the ‘duality’ of life. I have been speaking about half truths, whilst fully acknowledging both sides of the story. You are quite right to say that it is rb who is the rigid one. He is rigid because he is onesided. Since he is onesided he will shut out everything that is inherently mysterious and that can never be pinned down with the rational brain. For example, rb, will not investigate benjamin libet’s experiments that demonstrate that free will is largely an illusion. He won’t do it because he is petrified that he will find something that damages his untenable position. Because he identifies with his position, what you do unto his onesided ideas, you do unto him.

      I’m here to tell you all that there are two sides to any coin. With regards to problem solving, there are two cases. 1. there are problems that are in there ‘infancy’. These can be successfully and easily nipped in the bud. 2. Then there are problems that have been allowed to ‘go too far’. These cannot be nipped in the bud. You are in a totally different ball game, requiring a different type of knowledge to solve them. Rationality has to take a back seat with these type 2 problems because you are dealing with inherently unpredictable self organizing entities.

      I can just see rb pulling out his hair. I would just like him to consult himself in this matter. He should examine his own dreams. I bet these are jumping with spooks and ghosts and all manner of irrationality. What can he be expected to say when his own dreams contradict him?

      Rob

        rationalbrain responded:
        September 2, 2015 at 10:48 pm

        Wow – you’re on some trip there Rob. Can’t say that I understand anything you are saying at the moment.
        If I read you correctly though, you’re upset that I won’t believe that there’s some mystery out there which ‘can never be pinned down’.
        If that’s what you’re saying then that’s fairly pathetic really. Why should there be a mystery we can’t solve?
        Just because you’re a defeatist, it doesn’t mean that other people are closed minded.
        I WILL NOT accept that there are mysteries that can’t be eventually solved. Duality shmuality. Instead of abusing others, just PROVE IT.
        Or perhaps leave the blogosphere and go back to the ouija-board so you can discuss the ghost world with entities who will understand what the fuck you are talking about.

    Art said:
    September 1, 2015 at 5:20 pm

    I am relieved to hear that. I am also guilty of placing you in the “rigid atheist” category as I only read your replies to Rob, and read them with a shouting voice in my head! The “shouting voice reading” is an interesting form of prejudice – I need to watch that one, so sorry about that, and thanks for taking the time to clarify.

    I have met people who are very much against the idea of Santa – and people who would refuse to read out prayers because they feel weird about belittling someone with God words. These people, along with rigid atheists and religious fundamentalists really set me off.

    I will disagree with one thing though. You said ” humans prefer actual knowledge to superstition”. In my experience, humans often prefer superstition.

      rationalbrain responded:
      September 2, 2015 at 9:35 am

      Yes, should have said ‘this human prefers actual knowledge to superstition’. And you’re also right in pointing out that (it seems) most people prefer superstition – I guess that’s the reason I started this blog in the first place.
      rb.

    Rob said:
    September 3, 2015 at 3:48 am

    rb

    Its your old friend Rob here. ‘Duality smuality’ ha ha, you are a ‘pill’ honestly. I didn’t particularly admire your descent into swearing though…….on your own blog too…….that is not a good example to the other participents is it? If this goes on I can see this freindly DEBATE further descending into a brawl …….. which would not be very rational. So pull yourself together man and listen up.

    I understand completely your postition. Being onesided you have a lot to defend and it is no wonder that you see yourself as being ‘attacked’ and ‘abused’ on your own blog. Can there be anything more infuriating? No of course not. You are a man to be sympathised with and please let me be the first and come to think of it, probably the last, to console you. If I was there with you, I’d undoubtedly pat you on the back for your struggle against the insurmountable tide of superstition. Who needs it for God’s sake

    Take heart old buddy because your total exasperation places you in an ideal position to understand me. Just sit with that feeling of discombobulation for a bit longer and you will be rewarded with an important insight. Can I ask you not to blow it by continually trying to defend your position? It isn’t helpful so don’t do it.

    You ask: ‘Why should there be a mystery we can’t solve?’ My answer would be ‘For the sake of symmetery and balance’ dear boy. We have scientists at the moment using the Large Hadron Collider trying to find yet another new particle. They ‘discover’ it and are surprised to find a need for even more particles which they will later also ‘discover’. They have no idea that they are personally creating these new particles that they keep on ‘discovering’. That is the mystery of balance that will never be solved…..until the moment when scientists ‘wake up’ and stop the ‘chipping away’ in a futile search for new paritcles and give up entirely on their theory of everything because they will never find it.

    I know all this news is anathema to you and I’m afraid there is more to come. So brace yourself…..I have total faith in you. You can do this. You can grasp this stinging nettle and expand your horizons by so doing.

    You have consistently (which is an admirable trait) denied the existence of the selforganizing principle. If I remember correctly, you called it psychobabble or mumb jumbo or words to that effect. Today you’d probably be upgrading your remarks to effing psychobable and effing mumbo jumbo …..and I would be the very first to understand why.

    However to put your mind at rest, I am going to give you a first hand experience of a mysterious selforganizing principle. I am talking about EVIDENCE that you can actually feel. You’re excited now…I know it.

    The dream is the experiencable self organizing principle of the human psyche. You will no doubt try to explain it away rationally, but that would be just the folly of your God complex. In reality, every night when waking consciousness is eclipsed, a coherent ‘whorld’ is ‘spun’ into existence out of nothing. It is an inner whorld operating on different laws to the real world, but which the ego experiences as real life. In the dream, to the extent we are consciously onesided, we are then confronted with ‘the other side of the coin’. Here in the dream we are faced with the symbols and compensations which oppose our conscious world view. In your case it would be ‘irrationality’ in all its forms. For the sake of balance, it would be wise to try to integrate those irrationalities, the instincts, intuitions and sensations that you defend against in real life. Failure to do this will mean those irrational impulses turning negative and starting to bedevil your conscious life in the real world. I may be one of those ‘demons’ that cross your path in the unsolvable mystery of that inner whorld. Look out for me there.

    Don’t be tempted to dismiss the dream world as superstition. The scenar appears to tap into that inner self organizing principle where ‘the house’ of your body is depicted as being ‘built without hands’. The scenar’s positive outcome without side effects is due to its Goldilocks BALANCED ‘just right’ , ‘not too this’, ‘not too that’ stimulous.

    Also, top scientists make use of the dream world. They receive a ‘just right’ answer if they pose a ‘just right’ question. This is the mystery of BALANCE in the psyche. Albert Einstein received at least one insight from a dream that allowed him to develope his groundbreaking theories. However, for the man who chips away trying to accumulate knowledge there is no help but hinderence from the dream world. That man must get to the end of his tether, realize his impotence and acknowledge the unsolvable mystery. Only then can he ask a question and receive a meaningful answer. It is the darndest thing, rb.

    Rob

      rationalbrain responded:
      September 3, 2015 at 10:11 am

      What you’re doing is known as a ‘Gish gallop’ and I won’t participate.
      Misrepresentation, patronising, and a flood of unsubstantiated tripe. Now we’re into dreams. How much bollocks can be weaved into one narrative?
      Not worth responding to.
      And no way it’s a brawl – reason vs delusion? No contest.
      As I said, start your own blog.
      Over and out.

        Rob said:
        September 4, 2015 at 2:14 am

        Ok Ok, I’m capitulating. I’m conceding the whole argument to you. I’m doing this to be realistic. I know you are going to be right 99.9999 percent (give or take a 9) of the time. However, two very wise people made the following observations: 1. The pearl of great price is always to be found in a dung heap. And 2. Do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I concede totally that there is a very big dung heap out there. Also there is an aweful lot of bathwater. The charletans and the well meaning but misguided people greatly outnumber the wise ones and you are right to be getting your knickers in a twist over this. But how do we find the pearl of great price in the dung heap or save the baby in the bathwater? You are saying evidence is required, double blind trials and all of that. This is totally valid. All I’m saying is there is more than one way to skin a cat. I’m saying that it is possible to evaluate the Scenar device using the Goldilocks Principle….which you do not think exists. I think you are wrong because teleology, the doctrine of final causes, is a moving force in the universe. The world is goal oriented. It has a purpose built in. There is self-organization. What I’m saying is that there is a disembodied ‘intent’ out there that science knows nothing about. This intent hovers behind the visible appearance of reality creating dreams, order and structure in the world. You say bollocks but that is just your folly my friend. I reccommend to you the well received book ‘The Goldilocks Enigma’ by the science writer and cosmologist Paul Davies.

        A new idea often follows a particular pathway into the world. First the proposer is laughed at. Then he is vilified. Many times he is thrown into gaol and occasionally flogged or put to death. This pattern of developement culminates in the people saying finally ‘we knew the idea was right all along. It is axiomatic’.

        Well, it is time for us to part. I’m glad we did this.

        Peace out……..Rob

        rationalbrain responded:
        September 4, 2015 at 9:53 am

        Yes, I’ve read that book – have all of Paul Davies work on my shelf. But he doesn’t advocate teleology. I guess you see what you want to see.
        In his other books Davies discusses emergent properties – those which emerge when a sufficient level of complexity is achieved. That I buy, because we can see it – the brain being the best example. But to imply from that that there is someone or something ‘directing’ becomes a belief system, and not science. Once you propose a serious hypothesis and offer up evidence and not just rhetoric, then we can talk.
        And just to be clear, you’re not being villified or flogged or being put to death. Or even being laughed at. This is just a case of someone not agreeing with you about scenar. If you are seeking to change peoples’ minds, then I suggest converting some of your considerable effort from writing about these things to seeking evidence.
        rb

    Art said:
    September 3, 2015 at 11:29 am

    I have had enough fun, now I want to make a serious point:

    From what I can see, the SCENAR device is catering to a particular market – i.e., those who are medically stuck, those people looking for a magical cure. This is a vulnerable market, and in many cases, a highly suggestible one, as these people are more hopeful, than they are discerning. The radiating effect the SCENAR device produces just reinforces the illusion by providing some concrete physiological basis for why the effect works. Like all good scams, it deploys hope, expectation and suggestibility.

    Practitioners using this device on such patients, are not serving them well at all. There are enough BS suggestible quick fixes around. They would do better to try and actually find out why the person has the problem they have in the first place. This takes time. But I think its important not to diverge or distract them from the opportunity they have to find out what their body is trying to communicate through their elusive illness.

    RB: despite the claims, I do not think any serious medical practitioner is going to endorse it as a means for treating diabetes – not if they want to keep their job anyway.

      rationalbrain responded:
      September 3, 2015 at 11:55 am

      No, but people selling the device and associated services have endorsed it for illnesses like diabetes. When your doctor can’t give you the answer you want, scenarites are ready and waiting to collect your cash.

    Rob said:
    September 5, 2015 at 1:23 am

    rb

    We all see what we want to see, rb. You want to see evidence and double blind trials. Good luck with that because all you will see is ‘duality smuality’. In the case of trials on pills you will ‘see’ that some produce benefits….but always with side effects. In your case you don’t ‘see’ the duality smuality or don’t link the twin effects with duality….. a property of most emergent phenomenon. The ‘opposites’ exist in the world. That is what we ‘see’. But if we try to get evidence for duality or ‘the opposites’, an uncertainty principle gets in the way….. just like the particle and the wave phenomenon at the quantum level. It is an unfathomable conundrum.

    It is funny we are reading the same books and coming to different interpretations. Paul Davis DOES support teleology. In the Afterword: Ultimate Conclusions P295 he lists 7 possible explanations for ‘The Goldilocks ENIGMA’ (unfathomable mystery). In Explanation E ‘The Life Principle’ (which Davis favours), he writes as follows: ‘In short it builds PURPOSE into the workings of the cosmos at a fundamental level without positing an unexplained preexisting purposive agent (God) to inject purpose miraculously. The disadvantage is that teleology represents a decisive break with traditional scientific thinking, in which goal orientated or directional evolution is eschewed as unscientific.’ Davis favours teleology and disagrees with you then, rb. Is he talking bollocks?

    In dismissing teleology, top scientists are throwing the baby out with the bathwater and what they are peddling is junk science, junk rationality. The scientists are not alone. There are nobel prize winning economists who are peddling junk economics which is being taught in universities. We’re talking about the junk economics that led to the market crash of 2008 and the trillions of junk derivatives that are out there ready to explode. There is junk economics, junk science, junk politics, junk medicine and piles of junk thinking bedevilling every avenue of human endeavour. Because we always ‘go to far’ and break the Goldilocks Principle, we can’t do a damn thing today without robbing Peter to pay Paul….duality smuality again!

    All the meaningfull ancient religious texts are teachings about the imitation of the ‘just right’ Goldilocks Principle. They all point to the possibility for paricipating, through ‘just right’ actions, in an emergent self organizing principle whose goal/purpose/intent/teleology is to make things come right as if of their own accord……without the buggeration from the dualing ‘opposites’. The approach has to be ‘just right’ to work this magic…for want of a better word. Read all about this approach in the Gospels, The Tao Te Ching, The Bagahvad Gita, The Secret of the Golden Flower, Buhdist and alchemical texts. All these texts were written by men who understood how to become available to the most biofriendly of the emergent teleological phenomon.

    When I investigated the Scenar device I learned that it was programmed to deliver to the body a series of stimulous that were intended to prod the physical structure in slow steps towards a ‘just right’ healthy value. I recognised that this device was based on the Goldilocks Principle and that the result of the stimulous would be to make the body available to its innate emergent healing response. IF what I have just described is realistic, then double blind trials would ‘go too far’ and ‘duality’ would emerge to screw up the results or make them ambivalent. This is the danger I saw….rightly or wrongly. When you are dealing with an emergent teleological principle, you don’t ‘go too far’ and ‘tempt’ it with proof or double blind trials. That is my view, but then I’m just an old wizard or shaman.

    This witch doctor points to the emmense value of ‘just right’ actions. Imitating the just right Goldilocks principle is our only hope for peaceful survival on the planet. Failure to comply with these restrictions will result in the conflicting ‘opposites’, ‘duality smuality’, being unleashed into the world. Look around and read the news papers for ‘evidence’ of this.

    Do you know, I feel like a celebrity who has retired…..but then who is moved to make a dramatic comeback. Duaility smuality…but that is just my folly he he!

    Rob

    Philip Kelleher said:
    October 3, 2015 at 8:19 am

    RationalBrain, you constantly allude to want to see something that ‘cures’, and at the same time, you seem to be implying that pharmaceutical drugs ‘cure’ something……..but surely you must know that pharmaceutical drugs don’t cure anything, (last thing they actually cured…though, there have been many casualties since with different strains of the vaccine, was Polio) .. Not only that, but they are not even created nor promoted as being a ‘cure’…but a ‘treatment’ for an existing condition…You know this, Right…? Can YOU show double-blind studies where pharmaceutical drugs cure ANYTHING…? * By studies, I mean INDEPENDENT STUDIES – AND NOT THE PROSTITUTED ONES, FUNDED BY THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY…Thanks ~ Philip

      rationalbrain responded:
      October 3, 2015 at 8:54 am

      OK then – how about ALL VACCINES? Proof? – eradication of measles, mumps, pertussis, yes polio, tuberculosis – need I go on?
      And there are shit-loads of studies to show all sorts of results – I suggest you look at the Cochrane Collaboration on the net and just browse.
      But, by all means, you please avoid any medication prepared by pharmaceutical companies. In fact stick to homeopathy, that will fix you up – you poms love that stuff, right?
      Oh wait, homeopathy is made by pharmaceutical companies too. Perhaps just stick to chiropractic, ok?

    Philip Kelleher said:
    October 3, 2015 at 10:12 pm

    You honestly believe that ALL Vaccines are ‘good’…?
    It has been proven that almost all the diseases you mentioned were in a steady DECLINE long before Vaccines…and the reason was Hygiene, Diet and Education.
    * Btw, not a ‘Pom’…
    * don’t use Homeopathic remedies either.
    * I have used virtually nothing of pharmaceutical ‘medicine’ these last 25 years.
    I just want to add, that this thread has been SO useful to me…because I have found the most diverse people, using Scenar – and being happy with the results. And even though it has been pointed out to you more than once, that these devices are not promoted, either publicly or behind closed doors as a ‘cure-all’, you still dismiss them without even trying them ONE TIME…? Is this what you call science…because it looks like biased opinion, with no personal investigation..This was the same mindset that kept people believing for many years that the Earth was flat ! – Hearsay used as unquestionable proof, with no real investigation.
    Vaccine supporters blindly claim that vaccines have ‘saved us’… well, have a look at these graphs… http://www.vaclib.org/sites/debate/web1.html
    Also, http://www.whale.to/vaccines/decline1.html
    and…http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2014/06/24/measles-and-measles-vaccines-fourteen-things-to-consider-by-roman-bystrianyk-co-author-dissolving-illusions-disease-vaccines-and-the-forgotten-history/
    These are just a random few samplings… But, they all show the same thing…an overall decline in most diseases BEFORE vaccines were inflicted upon the world.
    A healthy immune system and a positive state of mind is THE best prevention against dis-ease….and even the pharmaceutical somewhat verify this by acknowledging that placebo’s have about a 50% efficacy, and pharmaceutical drugs don’t even have that degree of success, in most cases. Bottom line, the hypocrisy of ‘pharmaceutical medicine’ with their trained drug-pushers… I mean trained doctors ( many of whom are good, well-intentioned people, I know) …which is exactly what they are taught to do…push pharmaceutical drugs for every condition…and they have virtually ZERO training in diet and nutrition… what happened to Hippocrates admonition… Let food Be Thy Medicine, and Medicine Be Thy Food”… ?

      rationalbrain responded:
      October 3, 2015 at 11:57 pm

      Vaccine denial tells me all I need to know. Further discussion will be futile.
      Enjoy your ignorance of science.
      Magic is so much more fun.

    Joss said:
    January 4, 2016 at 3:22 pm

    Scenar helps healing of ulcers
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16924799

      rationalbrain responded:
      January 4, 2016 at 3:30 pm

      What do you know. It’s a russian study! If you’ve gleaned anything about my writings on this topic, I give zero credibility to anything coming from Russia on this topic – most of the bullshit on the web is of Russian origin, so no reason to start believing them now.
      Having said that, all I could see was an abstract – what were the actual results, and what actual objective measures were used to record, for example, that scenar ‘fastened ulcer healing’ (laughs out loud.. if the study is as good as the translation, then forget it).
      If you have access to the study construction then let’s have a look – post it for us all to see. I bet you don’t though.

        aks said:
        January 4, 2016 at 9:41 pm

        Thats a pretty stupid attitude to take and borderline xenophobic. Just because something is from Russia and you disregard it? Are you serious? Are you even aware of the depth and extent of Russian engineering advancement? Just because some BS on the net is of Russian origin, so what? Theres ton of rubbish on the net from western sources, so people should disregard all western studies. Grow up.

        rationalbrain responded:
        January 5, 2016 at 11:19 am

        FYI I’ve ditched your second post. Not going to tolerate abuse.
        Did you actually READ my reply to joss? Quote, with respect to Russia: “They actually have a fantastic track record in real science – space, maths, physics you name it.” So, am I anti-Russian? Even a child could understand that.
        I’ve simply observed that Russia is the epicentre of this whole scenar nonsense – and it’s the Russian sites that make the outlandish claims about curing disease. Yes, there are countless Western sites with rubbish in them, and I’ve covered a few of them in OTHER POSTS. This one happens to be about scenar, hence the reference to Russia.
        If you have views to the contrary, then say so, instead of grandstanding. You’re clearly using xenophobia now because you’ve got nothing else. Next you’ll be comparing me to Hitler.

    Joss said:
    January 4, 2016 at 4:08 pm

    I do have the full copy and hundreds more, I just thought you wld like something on pub med so you can see it is published. I think your attitude of “everything from Russia is worthless” is hardly fair. Many of the worlds greatest Scientists were/are Russian. And yes they publish most of the research on Scenar because it is endorsed by the government there to be used in all public hospitals. Are you suggesting the Russian gov is in on a conspiracy to promote Scenar? BTW do u want me to just copy and paste whole articles here? Yes translation from Russian to English is difficult, complaining about reality doesn’t promote your agenda

      rationalbrain responded:
      January 4, 2016 at 4:18 pm

      If there are hundreds more, where are they? Are they all Russian? I’m dubious about the russian connection because of the outlandish and ridiculous claims nearly all of their websites have made. Credibility is about zero. As for conspiracy, many countries promote crap – for example homeopathy, although they are starting to wake up now. So government support, financial or otherwise, is hardly persuasive. I never said everything russian was worthless – only writings on scenar. They actually have a fantastic track record in real science – space, maths, physics you name it.
      Yes, post the study here, so we can see how the study was done – especially the study design, and how the benefits were objectively measured.
      Hint: If there are no controls, or the researchers are not blinded, or the subjects self-report subjective outcomes, then don’t bother.

    Joss said:
    January 4, 2016 at 4:56 pm

    I will post it once I am on a desktop.
    Yes I agree a valid study design is essential, there were controls (receiving standard pharma care in most cases), randomisation into groups and objective scientific measures of outcomes, Blinding is easy when your testing pills but can be nearly impossible with hands on therapies. This is often a limitation of the research but placebo effects are unlikely to explain all of the observed effects especially in certain situations which do not typically respond to Placebo’s (eg non healing diabetic ulcers or non union bone fractures). However so long as you think the only method of action is a slight warming effect, it will be tempting to doubt any evidence. Heating is most certainly not the mechanism of action

      rationalbrain responded:
      January 4, 2016 at 4:59 pm

      I’m happy to be persuaded by the appropriate evidence. That’s all I’ve ever asked for.

    Joss said:
    January 4, 2016 at 5:27 pm

    After this, I won’t comment anymore without some data to scrutinize, I just want to say that healthy skepticism is always warrented and that unsubstantiated claims of Scenar helping with specific diseases are foolish. This includes the various claims of “cure rates” that were going around and seem to be based on nothing more then a collection of uncontrolled case studies from Russia. That data is useless.
    My position is simply that these devices seem to be useful and may represent a promising area of research not to be thrown away because of some incredulous claims. They are not a panacea – nothing is, and much more quality research is required to see what exactly Scenar is good for and what it is not.

      rationalbrain responded:
      January 4, 2016 at 6:10 pm

      OK, well that position seems reasonable – I agree wholeheartedly.
      Happy new year to you.

    Joss said:
    January 15, 2016 at 5:29 pm

    Authors: Кочурова И.А., Циммерман И.С., Владимирский Е.В.
    (Kochurova I., Cimmerman I., Vladimirsky E.) Perm State Medical Academy, Department of faculty therapy, clinical pharmacology, physiotherapy and traditional methods of treatment
    Article name: Патогенетические основы применения СКЭНАР-терапии в комплексном лечении язвенной болезни двенадцатиперстной кишки
    Key words: SCENAR, gastroenterology, duodenal ulcer
    Summary: We tried one of the new physical methods based on low-frequency pulse electrotherapy – SCENAR-therapy – as an alternative opportunity of duodenal ulcer management as it normalizes disturbed mechanisms of the body’s adaptive regulation and self-regulation. The influence of SCENAR-therapy on the clinical and functional gastric index of 72 duodenal ulcer patients was studied. Positive SCENAR-therapy effects were revealed in the majority of the patients. The combination of the conservative drug management and SCENAR-therapy shortens ulcer healing, promotes eradication of Helicobacter pylori, and improves the condition of gastro duodenal mucous.
    Pathogenetic Principles of SCENAR-therapy in Multiple Therapy of Duodenal Ulcer
    Nowadays SCENAR-therapy is in common practice in physiotherapy. SCENAR-therapy is a sort of low-frequency impulse electrotherapy and can be referred to the methods of reflex anesthesia (as the methods of electro acupuncture and transdermal electric stimulation of nerves). Their analgetic effect is connected with activation of endogenous antinociceptive system. Today, we’ve got various arguments of participation of antinociceptive transmitter systems in the mechanisms of reflex anesthesia [11]. The role of opioid, serotonin and noradrenergic systems in realization of reflex analgesia is proved here (F.Cervero, 1995). For treatment procedure conduction by these methods is recommended to choose areas, which are reflexively connected with sickly areas for the purpose of activation mechanisms of segmental inhibition, and also to influence on zones, which are distant from sickly area, for mobilization of central antinociceptive processes.
    Parallel with peripheral effect, which is determined by peripheral of biologically active substances [6], the SCENAR-therapy method has central effect, mobilizing regulative mechanisms of system of organism recovery [27]. In many respects, it’s connected with the episodes of brain electrical activity synchronization at the leading role of forward hypothalamus, which coordinates the activity of vegetative nervous system [28]. After stimulation the heightened slow-wave activity and parasympathetic tonus can be kept for one day (the aftereffect). In papers of L.X.Garkavy and joint authors [3], there was proved that such electrophysiological picture correlates with antistress reaction of training of the animals and human being. Exactly after its development, these researchers join the forming of SCENAR-therapy effects. The mechanism of SCENAR-therapy impact is not studied enough. Taking into account the broad pathology spectrum, the researchers make guess-work about the non-specific character of its therapeutic action, i.e. about the active participation of reciprocal non-specific adaptive organism reactions [3, 8].
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    The mechanism of SCENAR-therapy impact, by data of some authors, is explained as nervous-reflex mechanism with activation of neurohumoral element through the local, segmental and generalized reactions [5, 17], and also from the position of the theory of functional systems forming (after P.K. Anohin) [8, 18]. Recently, some of the researchers have tried to examine various forms of vital activity and also the condition of disease in terms of informative principle [8, 20]. They admit that the basis of disease is formed by dyscrasia (disorder of substances, energies and information), some it becomes evident that one of the tendency of treatment is normalization of the indexes. The medical effects of many modern physiotherapy methods are pointed to activation of protecting organism mechanisms by principle of self-regulation, and some methods of traditional medicine provides the recovery of such homeostasis indexes as energy and information. So the SCENAR-therapy can be examined as the method of orthodox medicine (the section of electrotherapy) on the one side, but the principles and methodology brings it together with traditional methods [18]. Among the main medical effects of SCENAR-therapy we can marked my(o)neurostimulative, analgetic, trophic, local vasoactive, immunomodulatory and etc.[7]
    It’s marked, that SCENAR-therapy, parallel with elimination of disorders, determined by the main disease, produces positive shifts from the direction of attendant pathology. Such wide spectrum of SCENAR-therapy impact is explained by the fact that for various diseases, without reference to localization of pathologic process, there can be reactions of the same type, supporting the mobilizing of pathogenesis mechanisms and increasing of organism resistance [3].Finally, the effect of SCENAR-therapy is formed under the participation of various regulative organism systems, they are: nervous, hormonal, immune, etc [6, 18]. Among the pantoclinical effects of SCENAR-therapy, it’s important to point out the activity inhibition of ПОЛ product, producing the antimitotic and cytotoxic actions on alive cells and tissues [16, 23].After the course of SCENAR-therapy is pointed the increasing of activity of catalase and the whole peroxidase activity within 3 and 1,5 times correspondingly, and the decreasing of malonic dialdehyde (МДА) within 25-30%[2].
    The influence of SCENAR-therapy on common adaptive possibilities of organism is appeared in tonus optimization of sympathetic and parasympathetic departments of vegetative nervous system (VNS) [3]. So, the SCENAR-therapy mobilizes the mechanisms, controlling the processes of regeneration, adaptation and regulation, both on local and common levels. These provide the appropriate answer of the organism on the influence of various external agents, demanding the corresponding reactions. In this connection, the SCENAR-therapy method can be applied for various pathologic conditions with the purpose of stimulation of the adaptation processes and the elimination of functional disorders (at their reversibility) [18].
    Nowadays SCENAR-therapy is a success in treating of radicular syndrome for the patient with spinal osteochondrosis, the diseases of peripheral nervous system, neurososes, CAD, arterial hypertension and etc.
    At once, there is little information of SCENAR therapy possibilities in treating of alimentary organs diseases, including duodenal ulcer. Among the patients with gastroenterological profile, the effect of SCENAR-therapy is marked during the treating of stomach ulcer and duodenal ulcer [22], and exacerbation of chronic gastritis [19, 22], acalculous cholecystitis with biliary dyskinesia [4], chronic pancreatitis [14], during combined treatment of viral hepatitis [15]; at the syndrome of irritated bowels [14], and during the post-surgical period after cholecystectomy [21].
    N.N.Hazova and joint authors [22] give the results of therapeutic effectiveness of SCENAR-therapy method in treating of duodenal ulcer and chronic erosive gastroduodenitis (of children) in combination with the antisecretory (omeprasol), anthelion bacillus (metronidazole) drugs, antacids and reparants (sea-buckthorn oil). 95% of patients have the scarring of ulcerative defect after 20 days of treating.
    The clinical effect was appeared by time reducing of pain syndrome (in 1-2 days), the decreasing of dyspepsia (in 2-3 days), the liquidation of palpational sickliness (in 5-7 days) and the normalization of gastrointestinal tract motion activity (quick elimination of gastroduodenitial and duodenogastric refluxes.
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    The improvement of condition and spirits and the normalization of dream and appetite became evident with most of children after 2-3 procedures of SCENAR-therapy. There is also described the positive effect in case of duodenal ulcer recidivating complicated by bleeding.
    In a number of separate clinical researches was shown, that for the patients with stomach and duodenal ulcer, SCENAR-therapy provides the considerable decreasing of subject symptomatology at the expense of spasmolytic and analgesic action and leads to quick forming of scar, the treatment time reducing and remission prolongation [4]. At the same time, the pain syndrome is stopped usually in 2-3 days, but dyspeptic one – 3-4 days afterwards.
    The disappearance of ulcer defect may be observed in 21 days for 89-92% of cases. The peculiarity of healing effect of SCENAR-therapy in case of recurrent stomach ulcer is the closing of ulcer defect by the type of marginal epithelization, and some times without rough connecting-woven scar formation [19]. G.V.Subbotina observes after history of SCENAR-monotherapy in case of stomach and duodenal ulcer recurrent. She marked the lack of any reccurents (clinical and endoscopic data) for two years after the course of treating [19].
    The main recommended zones of treating impact during SCENAR-therapy for patients with duodenal ulcer are: epigastric area and segmental reflex zones [13].
    The mode of impact is labial-steady with light compression under the frequency 50-70 Hz and 120-150Hz; the duration of medical séance (exposition)is about 30 minutes; the course is 10-12 procedures daily or every other day [9]. The electro puncture method is also used on appropriate biologically active points [24].
    P.P.Lashedko points out the possibility of using SCENAR-therapy with the aim of decreasing of curculatory-microrculatory hypoxia degree and prevention of its development to the patients with erosive-ulcer defects of mucous of stomach and duodenum. At the same time it’s recommended to start the treating within the next few hours after operation, the procedures must be done every day or two times a day and the impact on the projection area of solar plexus must be also done [12].
    Starting from the stomach ulcer pathogenesis conception [25], in keeping with it in its development take part not only local factors of pathogenesis (acido peptic and infectious), but also the disfunctions of adaptive regulation and self-regulation mechanisms, stomach functions on various levels, starting with gastroduodenitial self-regulation system and ending with corticosubcortical relations, the using of SCENAR-therapy during the stomach ulcer recurrent is pathogenetically justified.
    At the same time, the specific mechanisms of SCENAR-therapy medical impact during the stomach ulcer recurrent, particular, the character of its influence on acid-forming and motor function of stomach, contamination mucous coat of stomach Hp-infection, the activity and intensity of associated with SU chronic gastritis, vegetative and psycho emotional status of patients, the condition of lipid peroxidation and cerebral hemodynamics are not studied well. In this connection, we developed the research of SCENAR-therapy medical impact effectiveness during the stomach ulcer recurrent, first of all from the position of its influence on common pathogenetic factors of ulcer-forming [1, 10, and 26].
    Task of the Research
    To study the possible mechanisms of SCENAR-therapy medical impact on the patients with stomach and duodenal ulcer and estimate its clinical effectiveness both as monotherapy and as a complex with traditional pharmacotherapeutic means (antisecretory and anthelion bacterium) during duodenal ulcer recurrent.
    Materials and Methods
    72 patients (56 man and 16 women) with clinical and endoscopic signs of duodenal ulcer at the age of 16-65 years (average age was 27,8±1,4years) were examined. They were divided into 3 groups. The first group (26 patients) was treated with the SCENAR-monotherapy, by the devices “SCENAR-97.1” and “SCENAR-97.4” in continuous and individually dosated regimen during 30
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    minutes (the course is consisted of 10 séances). The 2nd group (21 patients) got SCENAR-therapy against in common with antisecretory therapy (omeprazole 40mg/day, for 2 weeks), the 3rd group (25patients) – got SCENAR-therapy in conjunction with “threefold” 7-daily scheme of eradicative therapy (omeprazole 40mg/day, clarithromycin 1000mg/day, amoxicillin 2000mg/day).
    In all groups the impact was done on the epigastric area by segmental-reflex method and transcerebrally by the common influence method [13]. The control group consisted of 25 patients with DU, who got just traditional antiulcer pharmacotherapy.
    The duration of disease averages 6,87±1,13 years (from 1 to 30 years). 23 patients (31,94%) suffer this disease for the first time, and the slight and medium-weight clinical course was made with 49 patients (68,06%). The patients with complicated duodenal ulcer course were not included. As for attendant diseases, arterial hypertension were detected at 3 patients (4,2%), chronic bronchitis were detected at 2 patients (2,8%) and vegetative dystonia – at 11 patients. Initially by ФГС, 59 (819%) of patients suffer from single ulcers, and 13 (18,1%)- from double (“mirror”) ulcers. At the same time the average proportions of duodenal ulcers were 0,75±0,04cm. The estimation of clinical symptoms were made before treating (the presence of pain syndrome and its’ intensity, dyspepsical effects in the form of heartburn, eructation, nausea and vomiting), ФГС, endogastric express-pH- metria (with pH registration in cardiac orifice, body and antral department of ulcer). During the treating were estimated the dynamics of clinical symptoms – first from 2-weeks therapy course, and then – every week, up to the absolute scarring of ulcer defect, the endoscopic control after the condition of mucous coat of stomach and ДПК were made, morphologically and with the help of quick urease test were estimated the quality of its contamination Hp, the activity and intensity of inflammatory process. The secretory and motor function of stomach were investigated in dynamics, the vegetative and psycho emotional status of patient were also investigated.
    Results and Discussions
    The overwhelming majority of patients before the course of (medical) treatment complained on day and night pains in epigastric, dyspepsical effects of various quality of intensity: heartburn – 55 (76,4%), eructation and vomiting – 13 (18,1%) and 4 (5,6%) of patients. The including of SCENAR-therapy in complex of medical measures was determined by more quick in comparison with control, the liquidation of pain, dyspepsical and asthenovegetative syndromes. In control group the pain syndrome reduction occurred in 2-3 days after, the asthenovegetative effect continued for 4 days longer, the liquidation time of objective clinical symptoms of disease recurrent (local palpatory pain, Mendel’s symptom and the symptom of muscular defense).The quickest liquidation of dyspepsical effect occurred in group of patient who have got SCENAR-therapy with omeprazolon. The asthenovegetative complaints reduced and eliminated in this group (in 3-6 days). SCENAR-monotherapy influenced positively on intensity of pain syndrome.
    The essential decreasing of epigastric pain was evident in 2 days (after 1-2 procedures). The analgesic effect of SCENAR-therapy is explained by its possibility for activation of fine peptide nerve fiber and mediates changing in brain tissue of biologically-active materials, which have antinociceptive qualities (glutamic and aspartic acids, serotonin etc.) [6,28], and also by elimination of gastric dismotor, which underlines the pain syndrome during duodenal ulcer. The important criterion of treating was endoscopic research (ФГС-control) of gastro duodenal zone condition (table 1). The scheme of treating with using of SCENAR-monotherapy and its combination with “triple” eradicable therapy allowed to have the quickest speed of ulcer defect scarring.
    So, in two weeks of treating the ulcer wasn’t defined in 1st group at 65,38% of patients and at 64% in 3rd group, and after 3 weeks, there are the whole healing with all the patients. At the same time in control group the ulcer defect eliminated at 48% and 76% of patients in 2 and 3 weeks.
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    Table 1
    The time of duodenal ulcers scarring
    The group of patients
    In 2 weeks
    (abs, %)
    In 3 weeks
    (аbs, %)
    Time(days)
    I group(n=26)
    17 (65,38%)
    26 (100%)
    16,2± 0,68
    p0,05
    III group (n=25)
    16 (64%)
    25 (100%)
    16,52± 0,69
    p≤0,05
    The control n=25)
    12 (48%)
    19 (76 %)
    19,32±1,16
    As a whole, the average time of ulcer scarring in groups with using of SCENAR-therapy is shorter on 3-4days in comparison with control (on average 16,71±0,47 days), here some of the patients as opposed to control group had epithelization of ulcer defect without forming of rough connecting-woven scar. Against a background of treating the diffuse gastroduodenitis of 76,4% of patients transformed in focal one, and mucous tunic was absolutely normal for 4 patients (5,6%). Under the results of quick urease test, breathing test and histological research of biopsy material (methylene blue coloring), most of patients (83,3%) have contamination mucous coat of stomach Hp-infection. The course of SCENAR-therapy didn’t lead to Hp eradication in 1st and 2nd group, but the quality of mucous coat of stomach Hp colonization after the SCENAR-therapy reduced incidentally (p>0,05). At the same time as for the 3rd group, the Hp-infection eradication began by the results both of urease, breathing test and morphological data. As for the 3rd group after the therapy there were occurred the semination in pyloric department mucous coat of stomach Hp-infection (4 patients – 16%)-by the results of quick urease test, and by morphological test – with 3 patients (12%). So, the positive eradication was seen in 88% of cases in 3rd group.
    Before the treating most of the patients (84,7%) had the evident hyperacidity of body and antral department of stomach, the moderate hyperacidity (15,3 % of patients) and norm acidity in 2,8%. After the course of SCENAR-monotherapy the increasing of pH in body and antral department of stomach are registered, the increasing of pH level in all departments of stomach (p,0,001) is marked when SCENAR-therapy was in conjunction with omeprasol and “triple” scheme of Hp eradication. The immature zone (the place of transition of subacid pH (6,0-4,0)value up to sharply acid (pH<3,0) didn’t undergo any essential changing. There became reliable decreasing of zone of maximal acidity in all investigated groups. The combined therapy in the conjunction with antisecretory and anthelicobacterian
    Substances provided the defined abscopal effect on the acid-forming processes in stomach, but the pH-metria indicators in basic groups didn’t differ from one in control group. The including of SCENAR-therapy in combined treatment of duodenal ulcer recurrent had “modulatory” impact on the condition of stomach motor function. When the stomach motor activity is initially decreased, the growth of frequency indicators of stomach motor oscillations, their average amplitude and total intensity of stomach biopotentials came to 31,4%, 75,4 % and 139,1 % conformably, and finally they’ve got normal condition. During the initial hyper kinesis, there are marked the decreasing of electrogastrography indicators half as less again (p<0,001). There are discovered the possibility of SCENAR-influence to remove the manifestations of dyskinesia, which has been proved by the increasing of symmetric (from 34% to 91%) and single modal (from 49% to 96%) variational curve amplitude (VCA) in all the investigated groups.
    During the studying the VNS condition the parasympathetic tonus of nervous system prevailed in most cases (76,3% of patients), and sympathetic one- in others (13,9%-of patients). Including the hyper vagotonia, which was evident for 43,1% of patients and hyper sympathicatonia (5,6% of patients) [1]. Vegetative reactivity (VR) for most of patients (39.3%) was unnatural; this
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    proved the predomination parasympathetic tonus of nervous system. The redundant VR was marked at 10,7% of patients and was connected with initial sympathicatonia. There was detected the overstrain of both department of nervous system during the security of action (SA), and 68,4% of patients showed the disfunction of balance and correlation between them. The including of SCENAR-therapy in treating of duodenal ulcer recurrent led to the normalization of not only initially unnatural but also initially redundant vegetative reactions (p<0,05), and also provided the decreasing of heightened indicators either of clinostatic (p<0,02) or orthostatic (p<0,05) probes. Here at the background of pharmacotherapy (control) the vegetative status hasn’t change much.
    Conclusions
    The including of SCENAR-therapy in combined treatment during the duodenal ulcer recurrent, positively influences on clinical course and functional condition of gastro duodenal zone, stimulates reparative processes and decreases the inflammation activity of mucous coat of stomach. In mechanisms of medical influence of SCENAR-therapy, there such predominating factors as the activation of indicators of “defiance” and the impact on common mechanisms of adaptive regulation of gastro duodenal zone self-regulation [5].
    Al the researches let us talk about SCENAR-therapy as the effective method of duodenal ulcer recurrent treatment, either like monotherapy or as a component in combined medicine treatment.
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    22. N.N.Hazova, S.N.Saralov. The experience of using the SCENAR-therapy in multiple therapy of erosive gastroduodenitis and child’s duodenal ulcer// Nizhny Novgorod Medical Magazine -2002-№2-p.84-86 [Хазова Н.Н., Саралов С.Н. Опыт использования СКЭНАР-терапии в комплексном лечении эрозивных гастродуоденитов и язвенной болезни 12-перстной кишки у детей// Нижегородск. мед. журн. – 2002. – № 2. – С. 84-86.]
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    25. Ya.S.Zymmerman – The chronic gastritis and stomach ulcer (the sketches of clinical gastroenterology) – Perm: Perm state medical academy, 2000.- 256p [Циммерман Я.С. Хронический гастрит и язвенная болезнь (очерки клинической гастроэнтерологии). – Пермь: Перм. гос. мед. академия, 2000. – 256 с]
    26. Ya.S.Zymmerman, I.A.Kochurova, E.V.Vladimirsky – The SCENAR-therapy of duodenal ulcer: new approaches to alternative non-drug treatment// Experimental and clinical gastroenterology – 2003. №5-p.51-55. [Циммерман Я.С., Кочурова И.А., Владимирский Е.В. СКЭНАР-терапия язвенной болезни двенадцатиперстной кишки: новые подходы к альтернативному немедикаментозному лечению// Эксперимент. и клинич. гастроэнтерология. – 2003. – № 5. – С. 51-55.]
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    28. S.A.Chebkasov, Yu.I.Bereshpolova – The central effect of SCENAR-stimulation: self-healing of the organism by activation of front hypothalamus// SCENAR-therapy and SCENAR-expertise – Taganrog, 2001, – I.7-p.15-21 [Чебкасов С.А., Берешполова Ю.И. Центральный эффект СКЭНАР-воздействия: самовосстановление организма через активацию переднего гипоталамуса// СКЭНАР-терапия и СКЭНАР-эксп

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