SCENAR and the Pathology of a Scam

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While going about my business the other day, I came across SCENAR in a facebook entry by a member of the family, who claimed that after a SCENAR therapy treatment their shoulder was now back to normal.

Having been on the receiving end of therapies for a lot of sporting injuries over many years, I was surprised not to have heard of this one, so I once again enrolled into the University of Google, the institution in which everyone is an expert, or so they think.

So, I now know that SCENAR basically involves applying a small current that gives a tingling sensation in muscles. That’s it. While this sort of thing has been done for years by physiotherapists to assist with soft tissue injuries, this version is just a cheap and nasty copy. The most common devices are like a mobile phone, and give out a tiny tingle, which couldn’t possibly have any real effect on body tissue. I’ve also found out that it was developed for the Russian space program. Now I’m really impressed.

And no, I’m not going to take you on an Elmore-esque adventure. Although it’s tempting, it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. Another blogger summarised it pretty well here.

Suffice to say that this has all the same hallmarks as Elmore; in fact the techniques are almost identical. Rather than do another expose on this shifty therapy, let’s take a look at the common traits of these scams.

1. Post hoc ergo procter hoc

Are you impressed? Translated, this most common logical fallacy means ‘after this, therefore because of this’, and is common when correlation is confused with causation. In this case, someone uses SCENAR on their shoulder, which then gets better, and they assume it’s the SCENAR. All they can really say is that the improvement happened after the SCENAR, not because of it. For SCENAR, we could substitute Elmore Oil, laser hair growth therapy, reiki, chiropractic, homeopathic remedies, The Secret, etc etc – you get the idea. Typically, whatever the ailment, it heals itself, or else goes through natural cycles – as in the case of, say, hair loss and cancer progression.

2. Extraordinary claims – low evidence

We’ve talked about this before, but it’s all too common. On one hand, the claims being made are breath-taking. Look at this for instance. Don’t be over-whelmed by this table – just look at the range of ailments, and the % cured column. Pretty impressive right? If this is correct, then we really don’t need doctors any more, do we? I wonder why this societal shift hasn’t happened yet? Why are we still training doctors, rather than pumping out SCENAR device operators?

On the other hand, the evidence to support these grandiose claims is pitiful. There’s an impressive list of references here, but inspection reveals that really only one ‘trial’ of any note has been done, with the conclusion that:

Due to the modest sample size and restricted cohort characteristics,future larger and more comprehensive trials are required to better evaluate the potential efficacy of the ENAR device in a more widely distributed sample population

And that’s it. That’s the evidence, unless you include countless testimonials. Elmore anyone?

This leads on to our third trait.

3. The Research Bypass

See my recent blog on this one. Basically,  proponents do some dodgy preliminary trials, which inevitably show a benefit due to either the placebo effect or cherry picking of data, and then publish, with no intention of every doing proper trials. This way, they can cite ‘clinical trials’, and have a nice, official-looking footnote.

4. It’s gotta be old or foreign

Like all good alternative therapies, religions and fairy tales, they are represented as being one or both of old, and foreign. Notice that any reference to something being ‘new’ or ‘locally invented’ is no-no. Having both of these attributes would seem to be the kiss of death. There are favourites – ancient chinese/oriental seems to be popular,  (it scores on both attributes), while SCENAR is exotically Russian. Chiropractic and Homeopathy are both 19th century. Ear candling is allegedly a practice of the Hopi tribe of native Americans. I could go on.

5. Adopted by dubious professions

It seems that bogus therapies are typically favoured by those professions which have no real basis to them – chiropractic being a good example. They seem to adopt various practices to complement whatever it is that they learn in university – applied kinesiology, SCENAR, manipulation of energy fields, homeopathy and so on. I wonder whether it’s because the practitioners are struggling to sell whatever they do, so latch onto whatever seems good at the time, to increase their perceived expertise?

6. A rap on the knuckles

Finally, and most desirably, many bogus therapies will also have official sanctions applied for making misleading claims, but which, for some strange reason, do not make it into the public arena. This is more common than you think, thanks to the good work of the likes of Loretta Marron (the Jelly Bean lady), and Dr. Michael Vagg. For example, if you go here and type in SCENAR, you’ll get a page of recent orders against companies and individuals making claims of efficacy. While I’ve had a crack at the TGA recently, Loretta and Mick have kept them on their toes, by filing continuous complaints and ensuring that they are followed through.

Armed with this pathology of a scam, you are now in a position to spot one a mile away – so no more excuses!

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241 thoughts on “SCENAR and the Pathology of a Scam

    reservoirdad said:
    February 14, 2011 at 9:26 pm

    Very nicely laid out. Thanks.

      Peter said:
      July 31, 2014 at 1:31 am

      Having read many of the comments posted I agree with your scam reference. I feel bad saying this because obviously people have experienced pain relief and benefit from this process. My experience does not fall into this category. Seeing my Doctor today for a follow up appointment around shoulder and neck pain, foot numbness, as well as blood pressure issues I happened to be offered a free session with a Scenar practioner who was part of the practice. I have never heard of this before and was given a brief history re Russian cosmonauts, common use in Europe and success in orthopedics etc etc. The session was for about 45 minutes and I experienced no pain relief or benefit (essentially that is why I have spent the last hour searching the net for information about Scenar therapy). What also particularly concerned me was the practioner’s focus with the device on my upper spine and comments made about how this would also reduce my blood pressure. I had my blood pressure taken by the doctor beforehand 136/93 and at the end of the Scenar session blood pressure 147/97. I’m sure many arguments can be made about blood pressure levels but my experience of Scenar therapy was less than impressive. I would not recommend Scenar therapy.

        rationalbrain responded:
        July 31, 2014 at 3:04 pm

        Interesting real-life experience Peter. Yes, it seems those Russians are a gullible lot, and Europe, well that’s homeopathy central, so to ‘common use’ there is no recommendation.

        Lisa Bennett said:
        October 2, 2014 at 2:48 pm

        I have arthritis treatments on various injuries for 30 years and am now on a disability pension and working. I have spend $thousands on physios, chiros, remedial massage and Scenar has helped me the most but I don’t know physios or chiros I still go to one! Some injuries can only be managed because they’ve become so chronic. Maybe Scenar is not for EVERY ailment but either is another therapy. Ive never had ONE treatment anywhere where I haven’t had to return regularly so get real. I think your article is a wank and your one of many living skeptics that criticize without all the facts. Why would so many professional athletes endorse the Scenar device? I know some personally who use it daily because they are pushing the limits.

        rationalbrain responded:
        October 2, 2014 at 3:06 pm

        Thank-you for your incisive review of my article as a ‘wank’. Very constructive.
        Did you know that professional sportsmen also wore (and still wear) rubber wrist bands because they think it increases their power and performance? (See earlier articles on PowerBalance). So that’s what I think of endorsement by sportspeople.
        You abuse me for critisism without facts, but all you quote is anecdotes. They are NOT facts. If you read more sceptical stuff you’d know about confirmation bias, and placebo etc.
        I have yet to find ANY decent facts on Scenar, other than some people make a lot of money from it.
        I keep asking why it is it’s never been properly trialled anywhere. Why do you think this is the case?
        So when you’re done abusing, forward me the trials which demonstrate the fact that scenar works.

    person said:
    March 20, 2011 at 5:01 pm

    your an idiot!

    I’m a fully qualified physio and scenar is by far the best treatment going around! Its used throughout europe – has been around 20 years! I have treated and healed chronic back pain to chronic headaches!

    Why dont you do some real research before you write your blogs!

      not convinced said:
      July 13, 2014 at 6:05 pm

      I think you will find that it is “you’re and idiot”. Where are the clinical trials?

        rationalbrain responded:
        July 13, 2014 at 8:37 pm

        Or perhaps ‘you’re an idiot’!

        dr4x@aol.com said:
        July 13, 2014 at 10:49 pm

        Yes of course…..the fact that a clinician finds it valuable means nothing!

        Sent mobile

    A SCENAR-ite gets excited… « rationalbrain said:
    March 20, 2011 at 9:02 pm

    […] A SCENAR-ite gets excited… by rationalbrain on March 20, 2011 A few posts ago, I wrote about SCENAR tangentially, as part of a piece on the pathology of scams. […]

    A SCENAR-ite gets excited… « rationalbrain said:
    March 20, 2011 at 9:02 pm

    […] Well in a case of delayed reaction, I received the following response from a reader, and rather than hide it and my response way back in the comments on that piece, I’ll put it and my response here.  In a dazzling display of Churchillian wit and grace, my correspondent writes: person permalink […]

      veritasetunitas said:
      September 14, 2014 at 6:23 pm

      The DENAS was developed by a Russian quantum physicist who researched TENS (transcutaneous electrical neural stim) units and, after finding them to be lacking, developed a device that interacts, diagnoses and treats disease states of the billions of telomeres in our bodies. This is achieved though electromagnetic field therapy. Telomeres literally cap the ends of each chromosome in our bodies. As DNA replicates, the length of each telomere shortens(except with oncogenic cells), that is the reason why cancer cells do not spontaneously die like all other cells in the body.
      Electromagnetic devices are proven, yes I said proven, to lengthen telomeres, identify diseased neural, osteogenic, smooth and striated muscle tissue. It subsequently corrects the diseased state by reprogramming the telomerase to a healthy state. Sounds outlandish? Well, most groundbreaking research does. But here is the proof:

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25087470

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24121220

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25100891

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23594452

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23323834

      I could continue to list more research but this post is too long already.

      For those who aren’t familiar with the entrez pubmed website, this is a compilation of peer reviewed research with rigorous standards that must be met before the National Institutes for Health will accept it.

      There is a plethora of empirical data that points to its efficacy, too. I originally purchased a diadens unit to treat a torn anterior cruciate ligament on my beagle. The vet stated that surgery was the only viable option. My little girl shook in pain for two days unameliorated by the pain meds. I received the unit, treated her for 5 minutes. For the first time in 60 hours, she stood up shook and walked to the door to go outside. The following day (treatment #3), she was going up and down stairs again, the third day, she was running up hills again. She never exhibited pain in that leg again and no evidence of decreased range of motion.

      I have successfully treated extreme sacroiliac pain and marked loss of mobility. One 30 minute treatment and my pain went from extreme to insignificant.

      You have to perform your due diligence in order to correctly use this device. If you do so, the treatment is extremely efficacious.

        rationalbrain responded:
        September 14, 2014 at 11:20 pm

        Yes, but despite all your techno-babble, you haven’t proven your case.
        No one has said that EM has no effect on biological activity. It clearly does.
        What I have said is that TENS and SCENAR and any other ‘toys’ are unproven in any clinical sense.
        As you say yourself, they are transcutaneous – skin-deep as it were. They have no where near the power or the focus to provide anything but the most gentle stimulation, heating and hence (perhaps) some mild pain relief.
        You are banking that most people won’t read the references you provide. If they do, they will find they are worthless in supporting your case. They are a selection of EM-related research in various physiological areas, but are completely unrelated to the devices/services in which you clearly have a financial interest.
        Why else would you provide yet more anecdotes (yawn), about you dog, and your daughter?
        Instead of these bogus stories, why not just provide the ‘plethora of empirical data that points to its efficacy’? Even better, the clinical trials which DEMONSTRATE its efficacy.
        You won’t, because there isn’t any.

    Patti said:
    September 2, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    I’m thinking of buying one of these, after seeing miraculous results by a fellow classmate in a totally unrelated class I took recently. Have you actually had a session, or are you just basing this blog on what you found on Google? I sincerely want to know and not being confrontational. If you have had a session and still think it’s bunk, I would like to know, as that would get my attention. If you haven’t had a session, then I can’t really take this seriously. Thanks….

      rationalbrain said:
      September 2, 2011 at 2:26 pm

      Patti
      Fair enough. But as I’ve said consistently, it’s not about whether you or I have had sessions and are happy – that’s not enough of a test.
      It’s about whether any real clinical testing has been conducted. The other question is whether it has any common sense method of action that fits in with what we know about the about and science in general.
      As far as I can see, the answer to both is a resounding NO.

      Sure, Scenar is harmless. Worst case is that you lose a few bucks. But it’s the principle that’s important – if you take the scenar practitioner’s advice on hearsay and not evidence, what else can you easily be persuaded to try? That coffee enema to cure your bowel cancer?

      I haven’t tried Elmore Oil either, but pure reasoning tells me that combining a bunch of ordinary things out of the kitchen doesn’t somehow give the mixture magical properties.

      With both of these examples, and many more, just saying you’ve used it and felt better is not good enough evidence. Non-specific aches and pains normally just get better anyway – so how do you know the scenar did the job? Answer: you don’t.

      Even if I’d had a session, how would I know if it worked? How do we know how long we should use it? How do we know how often treatment will be successful?
      These things are normally determined in controlled clinical trials, but I couldn’t find any. If you do, please let me know, and I’ll be happy to review and publish.

      And I haven’t restricted my research to google. As you know, it’s full of crap. I have some ‘go to’ references which are either open source references, or, written by people in whom I have confidence to have done the necessary research. I’ve talked about this in an earlier entry. Things like Pubmed, and the Cochrane Reviews are terrific for researching all sorts of therapies and substances. You should also check out come of the regulators, like the Therapeutic Goods Administration. While they have their faults (i’ve also written about this), when prodded they will take action. In this case they have taken action against several companies for the claims made in respect of Scenar.

      Anyway, thanks for the discussion.
      rb

        RIchard Sutton said:
        March 16, 2012 at 10:26 pm

        I think it works – at least a bit. My parents met in the research labs at the Welcome foundation, and I grew up with double blind placebo trials. There are a lot of wild claims made of SCENAR and a lot of attempts to make it star trek. I bought a device on 30 days approval intending to send it back – but didnt. I was using it to treat shoulder pain.. The source of the pain is C5 arthritis from an ancient car crash, and a thumb injury from karate. The muscles just lock up if driving, using a pc etc. Scenar doesnt cure it (good physio on C5 gets closest). But it does relieve it. Lots. And it has proved effective on a recent ankle sprain (pain relief – not claiming healing, although not dismissing it either – lack the control to make firm claims). Moreover, even allowing for the fact that it will be reacting to surface moisture, it is a bit spooky how when used as directed (with the sweeping tests) it correctly identifies pain / muscle lock sites by “sticking” (and yes I have tried turning it off to see if it sticks when off), and how “clearing” those sticky points offers relief. So, conclusion, pity there is no proper scientific assessment available, a lot of the claims are probably over the top, but I wouldnt part with mine, which definitely provides pain relief / management to a useful degree over a 3 year period.

        rationalbrain said:
        March 16, 2012 at 11:19 pm

        Richard,
        I’m glad you find that it works ‘a bit’. Although later you say it relieves ‘lots’, so not sure where you really stand.
        I must say, the second half of your anecdote definitely sounds like an ad, but I guess we’ll have to take it on face value.
        Cheers.

        D Stabe said:
        May 12, 2012 at 6:47 am

        Very interesting opinion , I have used the scenar for over four years now, on all sorts of ailments with my clients. It is not simply put; a electric current , it operates with frequencies and is a form of biofeedback. So it puts into our bodies healing frequencies. It is a amazing machine and I have seen first hand scientific evidence of its healing effects. If google is your main source of research, GOOGLE: clinical studies with scenar . There is a ton of them. It is amazing medical device, that is capable of a lot .

        rationalbrain said:
        May 12, 2012 at 7:50 am

        Firstly, if you think there are clinical studies worth looking at, then tell me what they are; don’t tell me to google them. I suspect you can’t.
        Secondly, you obviously have no clue what a ‘frequency’ is. So tell me your understanding of it. What part of the spectrum are your frequencies in? And when you ‘put them into our bodies’, how does if cause healing? If you can’t answer these simple questions, then you have just confirmed how bogus scenar actually is.
        Clearly, you’re selling some bogus therapy and are just in it for the money. Otherwise you are simply self-deluded.
        Look forward to your reply. Convince me otherwise with EVIDENCE.
        rb.

        rationalbrain said:
        May 31, 2012 at 3:47 pm

        Err, still waiting for those studies.
        When you get a chance.
        rb.

        ged said:
        April 3, 2013 at 12:29 pm

        dear random.rationalbrain. All you have to do is type Scenar Research. There are none so blind as those who wont see. What pharmaceutical wacko company do you represent? Hey.. fungi. Stay in the dark. We need all the sceptics we can muster. This “baseless technology ” has worked for 30 years.. and you’re a bit late to attempt to dis it now. Ha ha. Get a job.

        rationalbrain responded:
        April 3, 2013 at 1:26 pm

        To be honest, I was just going to bin your abusive contribution, since it is typical of the level of discourse offered by the easily-led.
        Instead, I’m going to be charitable, just this once.

        Here’s your opportunity to enlighten us all with your massive intellect.
        Share with us your research. But I don’t mean give me links to other cranks on the internet (especially the seemingly endless list of Russian ones who have perfected the art of sciencey-babble which no doubt impresses the likes of you, but makes me laugh). No, give me the “Scenar Research” which comprises decent trials (preferably double blind and placebo controlled), and publication in appropriate journals. And don’t just give me the easy stuff which tells us how so and so thinks his shoulder feels better. Give me the stuff which shows diabetes being cured, because that’s what they claim.

        I’ll bet you won’t come back with that information. Why? Because it doesn’t exist, and you’re intellectually lazy in any case. You’d much rather read stuff that confirms what you already believe rather than asking the hard questions.

        Also ask this question: why is it that Scenar seems to be one of the therapies that don’t have any decent trials done? Curious isn’t it? Let’s try and think why that might be? Oh yes, if they did, and they didn’t get the right result, they might not be able to bilk easy marks like you out of their dough.
        For god’s sake, even proponents of acupuncture, homeopathy, and chiropractic even manage to do some decent trials. That’s how we know they don’t work.
        You can abuse all you want. I’m the one asking the hard questions. You’re the sucker handing over the cash. Good thing you have a job.

        Todd said:
        April 3, 2013 at 3:13 pm

        its always the same thing from “ir-rationalbrain”. You do the test, make it so I like it, or it’s no good. Don’t bother trying to reason with the unreasonable. And God forbid you criticize his/her way of thinking. That’s just considered abuse…

        rationalbrain responded:
        April 3, 2013 at 4:24 pm

        Ahh Todd!
        I can always count on you to repeat yourself ad nauseam.
        Your best argument seems to be “oh yeah?”.
        I don’t WANT you to reason with me. I want to see the evidence. You just won’t accept that, will you.
        ANY evidence that your crap device cures ANY disease.
        I’ll be waiting.
        In the meantime, if it makes you feel better to have a go at me, then so be it.
        In the absence of any real arguments, just call me names, and make amusing changes to the name of the blog. All very intelligent.
        Keep up the good work.

        Todd said:
        April 3, 2013 at 5:50 pm

        Im not sure what part of your blog exudes intelligence. Prejudice, yes. Pompousness, yes. Boring repetition, yes. But I fail to see any intelligence at all. You put the burden of proof on others and assert that a technology you’ve never even tried, is a scam. All I’ve ever said is, I’ve tried it, so I at least have some frame of reference. What is yours?

        Your opinion is literally meaningless as it is founded on absolutely no scholarly work nor personal experience. You could be the least helpful of any of the people that have posted on this blog. You speak with some sort of academic arrogance which is hilarious because you have absolutely nothing to offer.

        rationalbrain responded:
        April 3, 2013 at 6:05 pm

        I don’t care for personal experience, you should know that by now. It’s a lousy way to do science.
        And as for scholarly work, what have you done? Enlighten us on all the scholarly work you’ve done. I have done as much research on this as can be done without actually running some trials myself.
        There is none of any quality.

        AND OF COURSE I PUT THE BURDEN OF PROOF ON OTHERS. These ‘OTHERS’ are the ones making outrageous claims.

        YOU are claiming scenar cures disease. YOU. If it does, then prove it, that’s all I ask.
        If that’s boring, well mate, that’s science, a point you seem to miss.

        And I’m afraid I’ve really had a gutful of your abuse, which does nothing to add to our total knowledge on this subject, so unless you have something other than huffing and puffing to add, your contributions will go straight into spam.

    […] year I’ve managed to take a couple of swipes at our Therapeutic Goods Administration, notably here and […]

    From the archives: SCENAR Challenge « rationalbrain said:
    November 23, 2011 at 3:11 pm

    […] invented, but about which we are blissfully ignorant . After my rant in this piece, I featured and excited response by someone going by the well-thought out pseudonym of […]

      John said:
      August 2, 2014 at 10:51 am

      You said “I don’t care for personal experience, you should know that by now. It’s a lousy way to do science” and you may be right in part. But how much does your hero’s of medical science do that very thing. A LOT! In fact very little of medicine has clinical studies to back it up not to mention the off label prescribing that happens ad nauseam. So little of medicine is based on evidence and I wonder if you run to swallow cough medicine when you “need “it even though studies show it’s useless.

      Not saying this device works, haven’t done the research (and likely little time to) I’m too busy being a quack by your standards even though I have research behind what I do, but it isn’t handing out pills.

        rationalbrain responded:
        August 2, 2014 at 11:25 am

        John, you’ll need to back up what you say with, err, evidence. Specifically that my ‘hero’s’ (I think you mean ‘heroes’) of medical science do science based on medical experience. Who exactly?
        And ‘very little of science has clinical studies to back it up’? Perhaps that’s what they teach you in quack school so that you don’t get disillusioned and keep paying your fees to learn fantasy – what is the fantasy in your case? subluxations? chi? Law of opposites?
        No, that one statement betrays your lack of critical understanding and willful ignorance, sorry.
        That pharmaceutical companies sell stuff that doesn’t work, like cough syrup, or homeopathic ‘remedies’ means nothing.
        Do not equate pharamceutical (profit making) companies with ‘medical science’ – they are very different. The latter does testing, the former does not care for it because it’s expensive and delays return on investment.

        So pls give us the evidence to back up your assertions.
        In fact, tell us your brand of quackery, and the research which backs it up. And for the benefit of readers, please don’t just give us a list of references on the internet which (a) most people won’t look at, (b) usually include a bunch of dubious (probably Russian) websites, and (c) isn’t all that impressive anyway.
        Instead, tell us in layman’s term, the basis of what you do using accepted laws of physics, not invented terms or processes, then tell us what the testing shows, and point to a specific paper by an independent authority that demonstrates the principles involved.
        I bet you won’t.
        Sorry, but I’ve been doing this too long to simply accept bland and obviously incorrect statements.

    Tony B said:
    March 19, 2012 at 4:33 am

    I have recently met people who swear it relieves intractable pain from migraines to residual pain from a motorcycle accident, allowing them to reduce prescribed medicaiton to a minimum. I had one session for lower limb discomfort (apparently undiagnosable) I have and it indeed relieved it for a few days. Placebo effect? I have no idea.

    On the other hand you can explore the wasteland of bogus medical theory backed up by the lab…..tonsillectomys, thalidomide, vioxx, antidepressents for all, ect etc. Ask a medical doctor the next time he puts you on Lipitor or indicates your high PSA reading demands a biopsy and asked what the respective NNT data is on the therapy. He probaby won’t even know the terminology or that 200 people need to be on Lipitor to benefit a single patient, or 45 men need to undergo invasive psy/surgical/radiation procedures to “cure” a largely benign cancer. But then again…..the CA$H FLOW is good!

      rationalbrain said:
      March 19, 2012 at 7:43 am

      So, SCENAR is free then? What is the success rate across the population? You have no idea, right? That’s because it’s ‘success’ is based on simple anecdotes like yours – like all the other bogus therapies.
      Yes, you can point to mistakes made by science – they’re generally not hidden, because, guess what? People measure success outcomes, and if something is not panning out, then yes, it’s withdrawn. All of the bogus therapies out would have been withdrawn by now, if they did any physical harm. Trouble is, they just lighten the pockets of the credulous. And sure, some pharmaceutical companies have done underhanded things – that’s not the fault if science, it’s just greed.
      When you give your list of dubious medical therapies (for some reason described as a ‘wasteland’), why have you ignored all the successes of medical science – like vaccination and the serious increase in survivability of many. many cancers, such as leukemia? No, you ignore them because it suits your worldview that ‘they’ (meaning science) don’t know everything, therefore I can comfortably ignore the need for evidence.
      I’m happy for you that SCENAR works for you. So are the $CENAR $cammer$.

    Tony B said:
    March 19, 2012 at 8:53 am

    I should have clarified that I have the utmost respect for the established medical community, especially the skilled and gifted surgeons that literally save lives on a daily basis. My apologies. Unfortunately a large number of people are misdiagnosed, mistreated, undertreated or overtreated each year by the established medical community. The number of deaths each year due to iatrogenic disease is estimated to be somewhere between 40,000 to 90,000 a year. Then there is the huge economic costs of treatment whether successful or not. The costs are obscene.

    To reiterate. I never said I was a believer but many people are, and these treatments are usually the LAST thing they are trying. I also said I had ONE treatment and it alleviated the pain. By the way, TENS devices are approved by the FDA for the treatment of pain. I guess they have been hoodwinked as well, but then again, they often are!

      rationalbrain said:
      March 19, 2012 at 10:21 am

      Yes, understood.
      Any by the way, if the FDA are anything like the TGA, many devices are approved without actually having to prove efficacy. So it’s not a question of being hoodwinked; rather, it’s not their mandate to assess efficacy, but to ensure no harm is done – and so if I want to sell you a magic healing device, if I don’t make specific therapeutic claims, I can take your money without interference. That situation is now slowly changing fortunately as I have indicated in recent articles on the TGA.

        Phil said:
        June 14, 2012 at 10:29 am

        If it didn’t work there would be loads of complaints on the internet. Please provide links to people complaining who say they have tried it.

        rationalbrain said:
        June 14, 2012 at 10:38 am

        Phil,
        Two comments on this:
        Firstly, people who use bogus therapies usually don’t complain because the think it works – via a combination of the placebo effect (ie they feel better just by doing it), and, the body’s natural healing cycle (i.e. symptoms of life, which just naturally resolve anyway – see my later article describing my shoulder issues).
        Secondly, it is not up to me to prove it doesn’t work. It is up to those who claim it does work to provide evidence. Real evidence, not random testimonials. By real evidence, I mean properly conducted clinical trials, the aim of which is to remove the variables which I described in my first point. Individuals find it difficult to remove their biases from the evaluation of some things, so we therefore need an objective and statistical approach to assessing efficacy. Complaints on the internet, or lack of them, is not evidence one way or the other. So, if there is any evidence you have, pls forward it and I will publish. I just don’t think you’ll be able to find any credible evidence.
        rb.

    Meet my new Friends « rationalbrain said:
    March 25, 2012 at 8:36 pm

    […] also on the executive as CEO is Loretta Marron, of whom I’ve written before, (here, here and here). Between them, John and Loretta have pestered the TGA to clean up its act, and must take some of […]

    Phil said:
    June 17, 2012 at 8:41 am

    But still though, none of that is evidence it doesn’t work

    Clinical trials are expensive, and who is to say the system wouldn’t pounce on them and try and bend any success towards failour. 99% of the wealth in medicine is in big corporations producing drugs, if a machine came along which would take away a lot of repeat prescriptions and consequently income, they would launch a huge campaign to ensure its failour. I suspect the authorities would only recognise double blind trials, which although suitable for drugs are not suitable for energetic medicines, this is due to the fact that drugs treat the symptom whereas energetic medicines treat the person. So there is a conflict of approaches which could be abused by the authorities to bend any favourable evidence away from scenar or simply nullify the results, which would ultimately harm the reputation of the device and cost the funders of the tests a lot of money. The manufacturers of scenar, being aware of this potential outcome, would think “forget it, let us just stay as we are and build up slowly in the background without a lot of fuss”.

      rationalbrain said:
      June 18, 2012 at 9:16 am

      Hi Phil.
      Here we go again. Why is it the proponents of the weird and wonderful always expect us to prove why something doesn’t work?????
      If you have a miracle cure the onus is on you to PROVE IT, not me to disprove. Next you’ll be asking me to prove that god doesn’t exist!

      Unfortunately Phil, you are resorting to the logical fallacy of special pleading. That is, twisting the facts to fit your version of reality. In this case, the claim that clinical trials are expensive – this is just pure nonsense. The next is that these mysterious ‘authorities’ would suppress the fantastic results from SCENAR. This is pure special pleading and I don’t buy it. There are so many studies published in independent journals, that no ‘authorities’ could stop them. And if you could cite great results, then people would take notice. Your only problem is, you can’t. Because no-one has done the work. Because it doesn’t work. It’s just laziness and greed really. If the the purveyors of SCENAR put 1/10th of what they spend on marketing into trials, we would have research papers coming out of the wazoo. But they don’t, and therefore we don’t.

      And what the hell are ‘energetic medicines’? Here we have another fallacy – a false premise. You state as if fact that ‘drugs treat the symptom whereas energetic medicine treat the person’. Firstly, there’s no such thing as energetic medicine – only medicine that works, and medicine that doesn’t work. I suspect you mean energetic medicine goes to energy lines etc etc, which are of course fictitious, having never been demonstrated in any real way. Secondly, it’s patently false to claim that drugs (only) treat the symptom. What symptom do vaccines treat? Oops, maybe that’s an exception. What symptoms does chemotherapy treat? The answer of cause is none. It tries to overcome the death-causing cells in the body. I could go on. Clearly, you’re just parroting the homeopathy handbook.

      No, your position on this is just typical of all brands of pseudoscience. No testing. Claims that the ‘authorities’ are trying to suppress. Huge marketing budgets. Relying on the body’s natural healing cycles to con the public. You need to do better than that, but it’s not hard. Many universities would be happy to test this gear. Your problem is that those who sell it just don’t want the scrutiny. It’s not part of the business model.

        Phil said:
        June 18, 2012 at 10:20 am

        I know these devices work, I was just offering a possible explanation as to why they hadn’t done more adequate trials. As it has been a while since discussing this stuff with anyone, I remember now that there was a great deal of warring between the manufacturers over the rights to the device, and one doctor broke away and created InterX. How is this?

        http://www.josr-online.com/content/6/1/45/abstract

        rationalbrain said:
        June 18, 2012 at 11:41 am

        On face value, this isn’t a bad study, but I haven’t really looked at the detail yet, only the abstract. I would just point out that it is testing pain relief, as opposed to rehabilitation. They call it a ‘supplement to rehabilitation’, so I guess it depends on what claims you’re trying to support. If it’s pain relief, then simple rubbing also helps as anyone who has hit their thumb with a hammer knows.
        So, this study tells us that the device is better than no physical or electrical stimulation of any kind. To really nail down InterX, I would want a comparison to massage or other sorts of physical stimulation.

        Phil, I’ll go on record as having used ultrasound on torn hamstrings in my running days, and believe that to be a valid therapy. With that equipment, you can feel the heating and massaging effects clearly, and to the extent that those actions help tissue heal, it’s fine. However, the difference with some of these SCENAR things is that their power output is so small that their physical effect can only be negligible. I suspect these devices trade on the better success of their bigger ‘cousins’, combined with a healthy dose of placebo effect, not to mention (but I will) natural healing. A good example of this in another context is laser hair restoration. Put a tiny laser in a hand-held device, and wave it over your head. Hey presto, combine sexy laser technology with the cyclic hair loss phenomenon, and you have another marketing triumph, also completely bogus.

    Phil said:
    June 18, 2012 at 8:09 pm

    What makes you think the power output is small, it goes up to 180V ? I can’t cope with even half of that. It is mentioned here

    http://www.scenar.info/scenar-professional.html

      rationalbrain said:
      June 18, 2012 at 8:29 pm

      That tells me nothing. It’s a question of current, not voltage.
      In any case, let’s not argue about the design of the equipment. Really the only the thing that matters is results. Objective results.
      Until and unless I see some of those, then no amount of testimonials or gushing will convince me.

        Phil said:
        June 18, 2012 at 11:47 pm

        Whatever, the output is extremely powerful, only people with severe problems can tolerate the maximum. This mode is called bee sting for a reason. I never use it on that setting. I can make it induce involutary muscular movement, I have seen it move bones back into place, and temporarily restore hearing. It is like a highly refined TENS machine, which are sold in chemists, but unlike TENS the waveform is able to penetrate the C fibres in the skin. You are welcome to try it, I can prove its effectiveness to you in a few minutes, I have several devices and 2 InterX. I am in Newcastle and West Yorkshire in case you are local, and no I dont want any money

        rationalbrain said:
        June 19, 2012 at 11:20 am

        Phil
        Thanks for the offer, but I’m half a planet away.
        I think we can agree that such equipment can provide temporary pain relief, but any true therapeutic benefits need to be demonstrated with trials, which are definitely lacking.
        As for all the other wild claims to which I alluded in my original post – you know, being able to cure all manner of things as claimed on this webpage http://www.touchofpower.com.au/case-studies.html – I would hope we could also agree that 99.9% of these are false or wishful thinking at best.

    Martin said:
    July 24, 2012 at 12:41 am

    Pharmaceutical companies own, or should I say ‘Donate’ to all the Medical Faculties in most of the prestigious Medical Schools. Energy Medicine was tossed out of the curriculum years ago. Big Pharma doesn’t like competition. Under their watch, chronic illness in most of the wealthy nations is at epidemic proportions. Unfortunately conventional western medicine has grow arrogant and displays a rather negative, derogatory, or derisive attitude towards any healing modality that challenges the current medical model. DRUGS RULE… So the world remains flat until you can prove it’s round… or has it always been round?

    SCENAR is not alternative. It is a mainstream electrotherapy device with exact science behind it. Currently the Saint Petersburg First Aid Society is conducting a 2 year research. Here a link to all Certification Docs. http://denas-za.com/denas-diadens-effects/denas-certification/

    Also you may want to follow up the research done at the first Australian clinical trial conducted at the University of the Sunshine Coast. Here’s the link to the you tube video… forget the news aunty…lol. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D14uulv9cY8&feature=relmfu.

    Enjoy

      rationalbrain said:
      July 24, 2012 at 8:23 am

      Well, Martin, if that research has been done, I’d be keen to see it.
      No shortage of scenar sales sites telling us about how it is in progress, but the university doesn’t seem to be trumpeting it. It’s certainly well hidden on their website, if there at all. Perhaps you could send me a more relevant link.
      The certification site you sent me is a joke, surely. Anyone could put that up, insert any device you want. It has no persuasive value whatsoever.
      Similarly, ACA article is another piece of credulous reporting, presenting only one side of the story.
      As I’ve said countless times – show me the clinical results. In this piece (http://rationalbrain.wordpress.com/2011/11/23/from-the-archives-scenar-challenge/), I challenge all the scenar proponents out there to send me any of the evidence listed. I have received none.
      And do you maintain that scenar also cures all the illnesses claimed in the Russian sales sites? Again, where is the evidence?

      I’ll put my psychic abilities to the test here. The research at USC will be inconclusive, or we’ll never see it. You’ll never send me any evidence from a reputable journal. You’ll claim it’s because it’s being suppressed by big pharma (yet they can’t seem to suppress the gazillion sites selling the device). You’ll call me closed-minded because I don’t believe ACA and a cheesy website.

      Martin, I’m happy to concede I’m wrong on this, if presented with the evidence. But no research that I’ve done as a layman has provided even the slightest hint that I’m wrong.

      Over to you.

        Jim said:
        October 12, 2012 at 8:03 pm

        Hi rationalbrain,
        Ive just got a few questions for you…
        I am just wondering what your motivation is for this blog?
        Are you a medical expert?
        Have you or anybody you know tried SCENAR?
        Do you understand that your body runs on electricity?
        Do you realise that many complex things cannot really be proven beyond doubt? One can only provide evidence for one argument or another? Clinical trials are not ‘proof’, they are evidence (very finacially costly evidence)
        Why is SCENAR so popular amongst athletes if it doesn’t work?
        Do you realise that if you are a rational brain you are only half a brain?
        And finally, how does what you do help anybody?
        Thanks for your time

        rationalbrain said:
        October 12, 2012 at 11:23 pm

        Hi Jim,
        Thanks for the questions – I’ve had plenty of these over the journey. Here are my comments against your questions, just to make sure I don’t miss anything out.

        I am just wondering what your motivation is for this blog?
        rb> As the text says on the About page, I’m interested in science, rationality and skepticism. These are closely related because science requires theory and supporting evidence to move forward, rationality means we make logical steps based on reason, and skepticism demands evidence for any claims made – the wilder the claims the more solid that evidence needs to be. And I like to talk about all this stuff, because I find that too many people suffer from the lack of understanding of one or more of these areas. Make sense?

        Are you a medical expert?
        rb> No, I’m not a medical expert. But even if I was, it doesn’t sound like you’d agree with me on SCENAR, right? There are many experts to whom I can point you, who will tell you it’s value (or lack of). In any case, if you’ve read any of my earlier entries about how to make decisions on subjects in which you’re not an expert, you’ll understand my approach. Most of us are not experts in most areas. For example, I’m not an expert on climate change, but I have views which are informed by experts and available evidence. Try this for example on how to make better decisions on complex subjects: http://rationalbrain.wordpress.com/2011/04/04/sorting-fact-from-fiction-revisited/

        Have you or anybody you know tried SCENAR?
        rb> Yes. My sister-in-law tried it. And swears by it. But that doesn’t persuade me one little bit. Why? For all the reasons I’ve been spouting on this site for 2 years. Wishful thinking. Placebo effect. Natural cycles of healing. Yada yada yada. Don’t make me quote my articles at you again.

        Do you understand that your body runs on electricity?
        rb> No, and neither do you. I’m not sure what you think you know, but that is a very simplistic statement. I could easily say your body runs on oxygen, or sunlight. Or sugar. Which are all necessary to generate electrical impulses. And if you’re referring to the mechanism of SCENAR, I say, so what? SCENAR devices are so pissy that they can’t possible generate enough energy to go beyond a millimeter or so into the skin. But your biggest problem is that the healing of muscles is more reliant on blood flow than electricity. Blood carries oxgyen etc which heals damages cells and tissue. Electrical stimuli are mainly for communication. So how does SCENAR work? You tell me. I have freely admitted that more powerful devices like ultrasound etc have solid evidence behind them. But they work because they put out sufficient energy to effectively massage and warm tissue to promote blood flow. Not because they jump start the electrical system.

        Do you realise that many complex things cannot really be proven beyond doubt? One can only provide evidence for one argument or another? Clinical trials are not ‘proof’, they are evidence (very finacially costly evidence)
        rb> I couldn’t agree more. Not sure what your point is. But let’s make a distinction. The theories of evolution, gravity and relativity are as close to proven as you can get. But SCENAR – NO CLINICAL TRIALS – NO EVIDENCE. Sorry. Prove me wrong. And the financial cost – that’s the usual diversion or excuse for not doing them. It’s a cop-out.

        Why is SCENAR so popular amongst athletes if it doesn’t work?
        rb> It’s not. I’ve been in those circles for 30 years. Never seen it used by anyone. In any case, many athletes also wear Power Bands. Go figure.

        Do you realise that if you are a rational brain you are only half a brain?
        rb> Well I do hope you didn’t mean that as an insult. If you are assuming that I’m Mr. Spock or something, well, you’re wrong. We all respond emotionally and intuitively. It’s just that if you acknowledge that your intuition can be wrong, you’ll make better decisions.

        And finally, how does what you do help anybody?
        rb> Please don’t waste your time on this site if you’re not interested. Simple. But if the feedback I’ve had is any guide, there’s a lot of people who are interested in these subjects. If only to expose all the scammers out there – like SCENAR salesmen for example. And those peddling alternative therapies which they know don’t work but make a lot of money from. Helping people learn to really think is a worthwhile use of time. And it’s free. REALLY!

        Jim, the bottom line is, if you disagree with me about SCENAR, don’t come in here asking these leading questions and dancing around the edges. Tell me why YOU believe SCENAR works. Show me the evidence. And evidence is not ‘It fixed Aunt Mabel’s shoulder’. Evidence is good quality clinical trials. But I’m betting you won’t be back with it. No-one that I’ve ever challenged to come back with the evidence ever does. They prefer to have these beliefs, and don’t like the inconvenience of the truth. That’s life being rational I’m afraid.

        Martin C said:
        October 13, 2012 at 5:25 pm

        There are none so blind as those that will not see. The evidence is ther. You just have to know where to look.

        Here are a few links to the documented Russian clinical trials for DENAS or DiaDENS brand of electro neuro stim devices. The are hundreds of these docs, mostly documenting Russian clinical trials. Here are the links http://denas-za.com/scenar-denas-technology/medical-clinical-trial-results/. and http://ebodyfusion.com/russian-scenar-clinical-results-details-on-18255-people/

        The SCENAR technology stems from TENS devices, the grandfather of these devices. TENS technology is well documented. For those that are unfamiliar with the acronym ‘TENS’ it Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulation, a device widely used by sports injury therapists.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcutaneous_electrical_nerve_stimulation

        You will also find documentation on the LET Medical Technologies site. This is Alexander Karasev’s company, one of the original inventors of the SCENAR devices. http://www.scenar-therapy.com/publications/ and http://www.scenar.ru/en/about/ There are available in English.

        As I said, there are none so blind as those that will not see. There is enough out there if you prepared to look for it. I don’t see that it is up to whoever happens to read your blog to present you with the evidence you call for in your statements debunking what is obvious widely accepted by the Russian medical community.. Perhaps there something wrong with the manner in which these Russian clinical trials.are conducted. Considering that Russia is the only other country that had a successful manned Space Program, I’m inclined to say they are efficient technologists.

        May I suggest that you satisfy your rational brain by doing a SCENAR documentation expedition yourself if you care to join the discussion ‘rationally’. Please take the time and trouble to actually educate yourself before taking a stand on this particular topic. By the way I had a stroke that paralyzed my right side from head to toe. I was in a wheelchair for a year. I now walk without aid. But that’s just old wives tales.

        http://denas-za.com/scenar-denas-technology/officially-registered-and-proven-effective-method-of-dens-therapy/

        Martin C

        rationalbrain said:
        October 13, 2012 at 5:57 pm

        Welcome back Martin.
        It’s very easy to accuse me of not seeing. But it’s still dodging the main question.
        I saw all the sites you provided in your links, and more. My reaction – very low quality evidence. Why? I could easily create a website like those – very easily. Why can’t you see that? Why do you insist I be persuaded by someone trying to sell me goods for which there is no independent evidence of efficacy?

        Don’t you see the problem with equipment vendors doing their own ‘trials’? Really?
        Where are the third party trials? And replications of those trials?

        None of the sites I’ve ever seen actually persuade in any way. Interestingly, the wikipedia article you linked to is not the best advertisement – for example, at the very top, amongst other things it says:

        This article needs more medical references for verification or relies too heavily on primary sources. (February 2009)
        This article needs additional citations for verification. (February 2009)
        The neutrality of this article is disputed. (March 2012)

        I don’t think I need to say any more on how useful the wikipedia entry is.

        So why is it only the Russians with a passion for this miracle cure? Is it so mysterious? You say the only ‘other’ manned Space Program – so why hasn’t the US embraced SCENAR?

        And do you buy all the things SCENAR is meant to cure? One site had so many diseases and illnesses listed it was ridiculous. And if you pick any one of those diseases at random, and then do a literature search in all the standard medical publications for that disease- guess what? – no mention of SCENAR. Go on – try it. Don’t take my word for it.

        No, the real story is that it’s an industry built on its own hype. Just do a cruise of all the websites – it’s just people selling services, equipment, franchises and so on. It may as well be pushing reiki or crystal healing or some such.

        Finally Martin, I am pleased you’re better. But I’d bet that you don’t have a medical opinion on that from a “real” doctor (i.e. not some chiropractor who makes a few bucks out of SCENAR).

        Cheers
        rb

    Todd said:
    October 24, 2012 at 12:35 pm

    i love how some people want the establishment to approve of some things with studies and government approval before they’ll use it. The irony is that the studies and approval go to the “established” businesses with the money. Until you have 1st hand knowledge of Scenar you will never know what it can do. The best thing you can know is that it can’t hurt. Bashing it is just foolish. I can tell you- it’s f*&&*^ing amazing. Cosmodic too.

      rationalbrain responded:
      October 24, 2012 at 12:48 pm

      If it’s SOOOO amazing, where are all the amazing studies?
      Oh, wait – ‘studies and government approval’ are just a giant conspiracy to deprive poor li’l ol’ scenar of money. Boo hoo.
      I call bullshit.
      These are the same arguments every purveyor of bullshit therapies uses – just a cover for the lack of efficacy.
      And just for the record, your example of irony… is not irony. It’s just a conclusion you’ve drawn without evidence.
      And ‘cosmodic’??? Please define. Or is it an invented word for an invented therapy?
      Signed,
      Sick and tired of all the same lame arguments to avoid providing any actual evidence.

    Peter said:
    November 10, 2012 at 12:50 am

    Rational Brain, I have no idea if Scenar works or not. I’ve never used it but I can say that your faith in “controlled trials” is misplaced, especially if you are referring to drug trials. “Pacebo-controlled” and “statistically significant” are weasel words. There is a huge difference between “evidence-based medicine” and data based medicine. I can’t get into a detailed discussion here but if you are interested in a thorough analysis of the subject I would recommend Dr David Healy’s recent book, Pharmageddon.

      rationalbrain responded:
      November 10, 2012 at 8:07 am

      I do agree that not all trials are persuasive – that’s where we need to be vigilant. There certainly is a file-drawer effect and outright lying and manipulation, and we do need a register of trials to avoid the negative results being binned.
      But that doesn’t invalidate the concept of controlled trials – we just need to be vigilant and ask all the right questions. That’s why I’ve written so much about the TGA and FDA over the journey – they should be helping us sort fact from fiction -as much with drug companies as with scenar, homeopathy, chiropractic etc.
      For the record, I prefer science based medicine to evidence based medicine. The difference is that the former is rooted in reality, whereas the latter can use statistics to show anything you want.

        Todd said:
        November 10, 2012 at 9:31 am

        I disagree. Trials are complete waste of time and are needed as a result of the harmful side effects of pharmaceuticals. The only reason one would ever need a trial is to ensure that the therapy is safe. Unfortunately for them, these studies are all done on animals first, so they take the brunt of our scientific tinkerings. If a therapy is known to be safe, for efficacy, all one needs to do is try the therapy. If it works for your condition, then it works. Ultimately medicine is an art, not a science.

        The crime here is the title of the article accusing something of being a scam that you have absolutely no working knowledge off. Having a successful treatment is quite certainly enough of a test, as the ultimate goal is to achieve healing and not prove anything as nothing in medicine can be deemed absolute.

        rationalbrain responded:
        November 10, 2012 at 10:32 am

        Todd
        Clearly you have no idea about the scientific method, and know even less about medicine. Sounds like nothing I say is going to change your mind.

        You say ‘if a therapy is known to be safe…’ – I say: How do you know it’s safe? Because your neighbour tells you? Because some Russion website says so?
        And if you don’t know for sure, and you try it, aren’t you taking a gamble?

        And I’m stunned by your comment:”the only reason one would ever do a trial is to ensure the therapy is safe”.
        Well, DUH! So, they aren’t a complete waste of time then??????
        So you’ve contradicted yourself in two consecutive sentences, well done!

        As far as anyone can tell, scenar is a scam, but I’ve been through all the arguments before so I don’t propose to do it again. Just search on scenar on this site.
        The only science in support of scenar is, well, non-existant. As I’ve said before, show me otherwise and I’ll change my mind.

        I’ll bet you can’t give me any objective evidence, other than some glib comments about medicine being an art, and nothing being absolute, blah blah blah.
        If you’re going to come on here, at least have a coherent argument, not some bullshit which showcases your ignorance.
        Sorry to be blunt, but at some point one needs to point out that your position is completely irrational.

        Todd said:
        November 10, 2012 at 10:45 am

        Actually its funny how little YOU know! Medicine is at its core, an art, not a science. Science is a helpful guide, thats all. How do you know a therapy is safe without a study? Its called common sense. If someone says drink a glass of water to help get rid of your headache (yes distille water IS an edfective therapy to aid in headache relief when dehydration is the cause of it) do you need a study to determine its safety? Scenar emits a level o voltage less than 1/100th of a cell phone. Therefore I am goin to go nutso and say its probably not going to do much harm. You tout medicines that have been “proven” safe through studies yet every commercial for an FDA approved medication rambles on about possible disastrous side effects, my favorite or which is of course “if you experience an erection for more than three hours” LOL. Your type of brain is so caught up in what you think us sxience you an’t see the forest theough the trees.

        You wrote a blog calling one of the most amazing therapies Ive ever used a “scam” without doing any research, talking to people who have used it or basically anything legimate and scoentific as you claim everything needs to be. Talk about hypocritical. Enough said right there.

        rationalbrain responded:
        November 10, 2012 at 12:50 pm

        I’m afraid you’ll need to justify your glib assertions, like ‘medicine is an art’.
        So, you know better than countless medical researchers over the decades, right? No bad for a tennis pro. I think the peroxide has got to your brain.
        And as for science as a ‘helpful guide’, oh my, what planet do you live on? I’d love to see you survive without it.

        I agree scenar won’t hurt you. But it won’t heal you either – not according to any research I’ve done – which you can see in the various articles I’ve written.

        I also agree the FDA is imperfects – which is why I’ve written so many pieces on the TGA here, a similar body, for being asleep at the wheel. But just imagine if it were a free-for-all, with no regulation at all! Why, there would be homeopathy and scenar on every corner!

        If you blindly believe the scamar will cure all that the proponents claim, you’re more gullible than I thought.

        I’ve done the research, and come up empty. The only thing I can find is crap websites selling it, and individuals with ‘faith’, who had a sore shoulder and now they don’t. Now that’s real evidence, right?

        You don’t seem to understand the meaning of hypocrisy either. I would be a hypocrite if I accepted scamar without question, given my desire for evidence. You seem to, so which of us is a hypocrite?

        My suggestion is for you to go and hit a few balls – that will be much better for your health than scenar.
        rb.
        PS – the invitation stands. Show me the evidence and I’ll believe. I’d be a hypocrite otherwise.

        Todd said:
        November 10, 2012 at 2:55 pm

        Your hypocrisy is quite simple cannot you call something a scam without having done the research yourself. When you figure out how Scenar is actually not affectives through research then you have the right to call it a scam, until then you’re a hypocrite because you promote research yet you’ve done none an yet assert something is a scam. I agree that not a lot of reaearch exists (that we can read because all Scenar research is in Russian) But you have no research to base your opinion on. Not only that I’m not sure how to test such a thing.

        Not bad for a tennis pro? Well just because I make my living as a tennis pro doesn’t mean I’m not an extremely knowledgeable alternative medicine user/researcher. The sadness of the state of medicine in this country keeps me from being legitimate practitioner as I have not only used Scenar but numerous other energy and natural medicines. I even had a client of mine go into remission from prostate cancer based on a program I gave to him. I know that type of thing doesn’t count for a hill of beans to someone like you because it wasn’t done at a highly funded university but that doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen.

        Of all the alternative remedies I’ve used Scenar has given me better results with musculoskeletal tears inflammation pulls and muscle imbalances than any of the others and perhaps more than all of them combined. In this country I wouldn’t expect it to be mainstream anytime soon but with people like you around bashing it you are just making yourself seem like an idiot to someone who knows what it can do.

        rationalbrain responded:
        November 10, 2012 at 3:07 pm

        OK. That you believe that you caused prostate cancer to go into remission tells me everything I need to know.
        And that you are a practitioner hardly makes you impartial. You obviously make a few bucks out of it.
        And your cred takes a huge dive if you profess to use energy medicine – another totally bogus concept.
        So I’ll accept what you do is not a scam. Rather, it’s self-delusion.

        I’ve already said I’ve done the research – as much as any layman can do, and turned up NIL, NADA, ZIP. If you have some, let us in on the secret.
        No matter how many stories you tell me, unless you can provide objective evidence, it’s just blah blah.

        And of course you have special insight, of which we in the ‘mainstream’ remain ignorant. Lucky you. Enjoy your privileged position.

        I think we’ve said it all, especially if you’re going to start with the abuse.
        I just hope you’re not talking suggestable and seriously ill people out of reality-based treatment and into your pretend treatment.

        Todd said:
        November 10, 2012 at 3:35 pm

        I wouldn’t expect you to believe it because that would crumbly your entire world. But there are things going on outside of the United States in medicine that are so advanced and so effective but I’m not moneymakers and therefore not approved by the establishment in this country.

        Lapdogs like yourself only except what was done at the latest University study half of which is sponsored by pharmaceutical company and you really have no idea what did happen with my client and his prostate cancer yet you act like you do. That tells me all I need to know.

        rationalbrain responded:
        November 10, 2012 at 3:47 pm

        Again with the abuse. I’m over it now.
        What would you like me to do? Just say I agree, or, I take your word for it?

        Here’s the barbeque conversation:
        Friend: Tell me rb, why do you believe that scenar works? Have you seen it in action?
        rb: No, a tennis pro told me it worked, so who am I to argue.

        And I am outside the USA. And I can’t see those advanced things you’re talking about.
        Let’s just call it deuce, shall we?

        Todd said:
        November 10, 2012 at 6:49 pm

        maybe if you didn’t write things off as a scam you would see some of those advanced things, which are often traditional medicines blended with newer technologies.

        Im not abusing you, Im calling you out. You call it a scam- back it up. And yes medicine is an art- research it. Ever heard of Hippocrates?

        Its not deuce- its game set match…

        rationalbrain responded:
        November 10, 2012 at 7:30 pm

        Ouch, nice one.
        Anyway, I’m not the one making outlandish claims about a piece of useless technology. The onus is on you to prove, not me to disprove.
        Hippocrates, really? That’s your argument? Yes, the old one – everything old is good – that’s called argument from antiquity. Everything natural is good. It’s called the naturalistic fallacy. These are the tools employed by those who simply have no evidence.
        I simply don’t believe scenar works – the electronics is trivial and the method of action is negligible – deal with it.
        Goodluck with your ‘business’.

        Todd said:
        November 11, 2012 at 9:11 am

        Your beliefs are immaterial and your lack of fundamentals in medicine is obvious. Hippocrates was the father of medicine, who are you? As I said before nothing can actually be proven in medicine anyway what’s good for the goose is not always good for the gander. Energy medicines are extremely relevant as you are obviously unaware of. That’s not an opinion, that’s science. The universe is vibration, and the manipulation said vibrations can yield healthy or unhealthy results. I’m not saying that there’s not a lot of bogus and his medicines out there, it’s just that original Scenar and also Cosmodic technologies invented by Dr. Karasev are without a doubt two of the most incredible discoveries In the history of medicine. Hopefully you will follow your coveted science and realize that there is much more to applying the energies of the universe which we are all comprised of and surrounded by To obtain health. Sadly many people such as yourself have been brainwashed by the establishment to believe that only chemical reactions can be used as medicine. This is because they can patent and sell pharmaceuticals to make billions of dollars and they are not interested in doing double-blind controlled studies about energy medicine. Nobody needs to prove to you anything. It’s up to you to go and find what works for you on your own. Hopefully no one reading your blog will be swayed by your unsupported accusations. If they are, and it’s their own fault for listening to random ramblings instead of doing their due Diligence in figuring out what therapy might be best.

        In beginning to understand energy medicine perhaps you should stop by reading Stephen Hawking or any number of other authors in the subject of cosmology to better understand your universe and the possibilities that lie ahead and medicine. Best, Todd

        rationalbrain responded:
        November 11, 2012 at 9:25 am

        Yes I know who Hippocrates is.
        But now I know you’re into the ‘universe is vibrations’ it tells me a lot. If you’re into string theory then fine, but I suspect you’re not, because that’s too mainstream for you. You prefer the mystical because no-one can prove you wrong.
        I’m glad you’re into the big secret.
        When you transcend us mortals, be sure to send a post-card.
        Over and out.

        Todd said:
        November 11, 2012 at 9:35 am

        As I said, there’s a lot of hocus-pocus in energy medicine. Once again, your suspicions are dead wrong. I’ve had extensive discussions with Princeton professors on string theory and you could say I am “into” it, but one need not be “into” string theory to realize that vibration has an incredible effect of health. If it can be a negative (such as cell phones, radfar detectors, etc) than it can also help. Your ignorance is in assuming everyone who uses it is from a past life or another planet and uses Guided Meditation instead of a car to get around. By writing us all off as this maybe you feel more safe? Whatever. Next time you call something a scam at least have relevant information other than your “Feelings” which continue to be erroneous time and time again.

        rationalbrain responded:
        November 11, 2012 at 10:09 am

        And once again you turn to abuse when you can’t convince someone of your beliefs. You’re nothing more than a religious zealot insisting that ‘vibration has an incredible effect on health’ without offering any evidence at all. That’s just like ‘god will take care of it – just have faith’.
        We can therefore get no more out of this conversation.
        Over and really out this time.

        Todd said:
        November 11, 2012 at 10:47 am

        Ok ostridge… put your head in rhe sand. Theres plenty of research on the effects of electronagnetic fields on cancer especially. Youre like a 4th grader with his hands over his ears going la-lala. You want to accuse me of abuse? There you go, have some.

        rationalbrain responded:
        November 11, 2012 at 11:19 am

        It’s ostrich by the way. Clearly, vibrations assist neither with spelling nor proofreading.
        But I’ll give you one more chance to provide some evidence rather than technobabble.
        Assuming my research skills are shit, please provide me with the top 5 research references demonstrating the efficacy of scenar. Simple.
        Please do not include:
        1. Websites pushing scenar devices, training or theory
        2. Books pushing scenar devices, training or theory
        3. Testimonials on scenar devices, training or theory
        I’m looking for independent replication/trials/studies of this remarkable phenomenon by real institutions anywhere in the world, although I will need to mark down Russian ones for obvious reasons.
        I look forward to receiving them soon.
        But I doubt that I will. More abuse probably, and excuses about how I would never believe you anyway etc etc, and how Big Pharma is suppressing the research.
        That was what the original article was about, and scenar was the example which ticked all the boxes.
        So, let’s see if we can get some real information flow here, ok?

        Todd said:
        November 11, 2012 at 12:39 pm

        I love your enthusiasm for the truth… and I do feel no matter what research is presented you will be unable to see clear to believe there is legitimacy to Scenar or any other energy med. What I referred to as an abundance of studies that point to health effects to “energies”, whether they be positive or negative (i.e police prostate cancer rates for officers who had radar detectors in their laps for extended years- or cancer rates for people who live near power grids and stations– its all well documented- use Google). Once this concept is established it can be concluded that “energy” has an impact on health. It stands to reason that ait can in fact become a great help if used properly. That’s all I was saying.

        As far as Scenar research, again, I’m not sure what has been done as I do not read Russian and it is extremely new in North America. I would hope research is done on it but am doubtful that “accredited” facilities will oblige to do so as they have no interest in even giving Scenar the time of day. Their goal is to maintain loyalty to Big Pharma. They could of course take on a study to discredit Scenar, but why bother. All they need do is say it’s not approved, and viola, its discredited in the minds of most here in North America. Great system, eh?

        Of course independent studies could be conducted, but who’s going to believe some Scenar study done by Joe Blow in his basement.

        I would love to see the research as well, but to be honest, I don’t really care because open minded people are trying Scenar as I have and getting great results. Personally I don’t care if anyone else ever uses it. I’m grateful to have found it. All I’ve been saying to you all along is that calling it a scam is completely irresponsible on your part as you have absolutely no working knowledge of it, just some opinion. Opinions are like butt-holes, everybody has one, but they should be kept under wraps most of the time…

        rationalbrain responded:
        November 11, 2012 at 6:38 pm

        OK, so no new information then. I tried.
        If you have any further of substance to share with us, please visit again. Otherwise please spare us the woo and conspiracy theory. It’ just plain boring.

        rb.

        Todd said:
        November 12, 2012 at 5:52 am

        same to you

    Glenn said:
    January 2, 2013 at 7:38 am

    I have a coworker who owns a SCENAR and swears by it. I began reading this blog and the comments while looking for critical alalysis of SCENAR. It has been an entertaining read. All contributors, including RationalBrain, have placed their biases on display. But, this is RationalBrain’s blog and he/she is entitled to express an opinion. Just because it is expressed does not mean it is correct. Just as the scientific claims of SCENAR proponents are not necessarily correct. Skeptics play an important role in society because many of us tend to act like sheep, or worse, lemings, and need a healthy dose of critiacal analysis. If you don’t believe in thoughtfully considering a contrary view you are probably a scammer’s dream. If you believe SCENAR works and want to use it, great, do so at your own financial risk. RationalBrain can’t stop you and doesn’t even seem to want to. RationalBrain wants to see credible scientific study prove or disprove the treatment/technology. Who could argue with that? If you don’t believe in SCENAR you won’t use it. If everyone can agree that the device is physically, if not financially, harmless than the spread of its use will be a physically-benign function of word of mouth. If someone you trust swears by it you may try it, even if you have read RationalBrain’s blog. I don’t know about you but if I sought treatment for an ailment with SCENAR and found no releif I would stop, no matter how much I trusted my friend’s opinion. If I found releif I would continue, even though I have read RationalBrain’s blog. Ultimately SCENAR will survive or fail based upon perceived results. As long as no harm is done, does it matter whether the releif is actually real or merely percieved? Pain killers often mask pain, they do not heal the underlying cause. SCENAR seems far less invasive and the only side-effect that has been mentioned is the financial one. That cannot be said for drug therapies. Ultimately, until credible independent trials are done, caveat emptor.

      Todd said:
      January 3, 2013 at 10:06 am

      results>studies. studies are also often erroneous. credibility can always be denied or studies skewed based on the results one desires. studies also allow drugs to hit the market that often kill people. the adherence to the line of thinking the puts studies above common sense and integration of numerous therapies have the US as one of the unhealthiest places on Earth with one of the least effective Health Care systems, even when it can be afforded. Few studies support the use of herbs for medicine, yet the Bible tells me so. Studies are nice, but results are better.

        rationalbrain responded:
        January 3, 2013 at 10:31 am

        So, are the results from observing 1000 cases more useful than, say, just 1 case?
        If you agree that the answer is yes, then you have just made the case for studies.
        You see, the two things are not comparable. It’s not one or the other. A study is simply a structured way of looking at lots of results. The structure is required to remove any biases based on our intuitions.
        So, your simplistic assertion is clearly fallacious.
        End of lesson.

        And, are you serious? You support herbs because the bible tells you so???? Or are you pulling my leg because you know I’ll bite?
        If you’re serious, then you also think genocide is a great idea too, ’cause, well darn it, the good ol’ bible is just full of it. Right?
        Give me a break.

    Susan said:
    January 17, 2013 at 10:08 pm

    Rationalbrain has every right to point out that there are no respectable clinical trials that prove this machine’s efficacy. I’m sure that’s true. All I know is that I am a complete sceptic of all complementary medicine – after having tried them all and having no luck. But I have had two sessions of Scenar with a physio and my bulging disc pain which has plagued me for over 10 years was dramatically decreased after the first session! It was like a miracle. I know the way these episodes go – I irritate my back by going running/doing step ups, etc, then I start to get a niggling pain and get stiff in the morning. I ignore it. Then one day I go into spasm and have to crawl everywhere for a few days until the pain subsides. The last episode I had I couldn’t sit down, couldn’t sleep – it was excruciating. I had the steroid injection into L4/L5 and it was cured for 2 years. I had my first episode two days ago. It was about a 5 out of 10. That would usually hang around for a week at that level and then progressively get worse. I had one session with the physio and when I walked out… NOTHING. IE it had no effect. I didn’t really care. I didn’t expect it to work. But then.. as the day wore on… the pain subsided. By the time I went to bed, I suddenly said to my husband. Hey – I did my back in yesterday – why am I completely pain free now? I woke up looser than I’ve been in months and without pain. I had another session the next day and continued to improve. Then I had a relapse last night and I got back to a 3 out of 10 for pain, but my body seemed to heal itself and I’m down to a 1/10.
    I’ve been continuously searching the internet like I do every time I find a new “cure”, but I can’t find the scores of people who’ve tried Scenar and it didn’t work. Where are they? I can find plenty of skeptics, but no disgruntled customers/patients. Can anyone point me in the right direction – I’d love not to buy one as it will save me thousands, but unless I can find hundreds of people for whom it didn’t work, I’m going to have to believe my own eyes!

      rationalbrain responded:
      January 18, 2013 at 10:58 am

      Susan
      I’m glad it worked for you. A good story.
      But for all the other things that didn’t work for you, how many times did you write them up on the internet somewhere? or complain to the practitioners?
      Most people would do neither.
      As I’ve written before, confirmation bias is a big issue – we laud the things that work, but ignore the things that don’t.
      The reason you don’t see the disgruntled ones is that they either ignore the results, or, in some cases, are too embarrassed that they’ve been taken in.
      Then of course is the old causation issue – many things just get better as part of the body’s normal (but complex) operation.
      Again, good story for you – the main thing is you’re pain-free, but it’s not evidence.
      Let us know how you go after you repeat the process a few times. Try randomising – after your exercise, toss a coin as to whether you will use scenar or not, and do this say ten times and report back.
      Although it is randomised, it’s not blinded, since you know what treatment you are receiving, but it’s better than nothing. I suppose you could ask the practitioner to make it look like you’re getting treatment, and randomise that.
      Would be an interesting experiment.
      Over to you!
      Cheers
      rb

        Todd said:
        January 18, 2013 at 7:11 pm

        i think that this blog is beyond poor in rationale, taste, ethics and insight. It’s a travesty to call something a scam when you have no idea whether that’s true or not, ethically and scientifically.

        By not even understanding the fundamentals of the modality you fail to even understand whether or not a double-blind study could be done with any other feedback other than what people report in terms of pain relief et cetera. Individual stories are probably all you can ever really get data on with this modality. The whole premise of Scenar is that it coaxes the body into healing itself, how can you study the effects of such a mechanism? All you’ll ever be able to do is ask subjects if they experience relief or not, no?

        If you would’ve just said “I’m not too sure about this type of medicine it seems a little bit dicey to me” than that would’ve been fine. But you had to go and stir the pot calling it a scam and implying that studies haven’t proven it effective so because its a scam. It’s pathetic that you support opinions based on studies– yet you form your opinion without a study! And when someone comes forth with their experience you discount that attaching yourself only to a study result, which you’ve already bypassed in forming your opinion.

        Time to check your own logic rational brain. And find Jesus before it’s too late. Bashing the Bible is not a good idea. Just trying to help.

        rationalbrain responded:
        January 18, 2013 at 7:44 pm

        So tell me the fundamentals of the modality? How does it ‘coax the body into healing itself’? This is just mumbo-jumbo that you’ve been ‘coaxed’ into parroting. It’s new-age speak for having no clue how it works or even if it works. Just like crystals and vibrations etc. Don’t you also want to say something about Scenar’s quantum effects? Surely it works at the quantum level too, balancing our chakras and auras, aligning our meridians, adjusting our subluxations, cleansing our colon, candling our ears, supporting our immune system, and enhancing our inner wellness. Surely.

        No, you simply will not accept that double blind randomised trials COULD be done on this modality, but ARE NOT. I could easily design them. I suggested to this otherwise sceptical woman how to keep testing, so that we can all learn something, but no, you want me to say ‘Wow, I’m convinced by your story, praise the lord’, and fall to the floor in raptures.

        Tell me why trials have not been done. I’ll eagerly await your answer.
        If you can’t answer this, then you are full of hot air, defending a mirage.

        Todd, how can you possibly believe that this ‘treatment’ can cure all those maladies claimed on the Russian websites I quoted originally, and not believe it’s a scam?
        Really, do you believe it? Have you even seen those websites? Have another look, and tell me you have an open mind. Then tell me why medical science ignores these magical cures.

        Then again, if you believe in jesus, then maybe you will be taken in by something like this. Sorry, but if you inhabit a fantasy world, then don’t expect people to take you as an authority on reality.

        Any anyway, why is bashing the bible not a good idea? I actually enjoy challenging it, if only to see its followers go into a frenzy trying to defend it. Why is it special? Because you so fervently believe it? Doesn’t make it true. Yes, it’s full of wonderful stories of all kinds – for example, ethnic cleansing, incest and so on, but then again, so is War and Peace.
        Happily, despite all the nastiness in the bible, mankind has developed a reasonable set of ethics to live by. Aint evolution and intelligence wonderful?

        Finally, I WILL NOT accept a lecture from you on logic if at the same time you’re playing the jesus card, in which case you’re drawing on the most illogical arguments imaginable.

        Yes, I’m grumpy.
        But at least I’m still rational, and feet proudly planted in the real world.

        Todd said:
        January 18, 2013 at 8:31 pm

        You’re not rational. If you were you would follow your own model and say I’m not sure if it’s a scam or not because I don’t have the information from the study.

        You want to lump it in with the all questionable modalities out there because you enjoy bashing that which is not studied in double-blind. You don’t even realize that medicine at its core is an art first and foremost. I’m certain that I’ve had this discussion with people in the medical industry with far more clout than you (ever heard of the Mayo clinic?) and even they agree on that point.

        It’s a simple concept, There is no logical reason for any major university laboratory with ties to the FDA or pharmaceutical conglomerates to test this technology. It will be ignored like all other alternative remedies whether they’re good or bad. Then they will do more studies on their products and talk about them on the news and frighten people into continuing to use their products. This isn’t laboratory logic, it’s just common sense.

        Please tell me how you design the study that doesn’t involve listening to people report whether or not the device has helped them when what the device does is amplify pain and healing electronic signals. I got to hear this one.

        And I’m telling you for your own good not to bash the Bible because God is the last person you want to anger, I can promise you that.

        rationalbrain responded:
        January 18, 2013 at 10:50 pm

        Yes, because he’s such a loving soul, he’ll make me burn in hell. Some god. Vindictive and capricious, hard not to love him really.

        And while we’re name dropping, have you ever heard of the Therapeutic Goods Administration? Well, they have slapped down scenar for making misleading claims. Vendors have been fined and told to withdraw their claims. Ooops. Just sayin.

        Go on, put your head in the sand. Other therapeutic equipment can be tested, but not this. Hmm. Very special indeed. Every heard of ‘special pleading’?.

        Todd said:
        January 19, 2013 at 9:57 am

        Is it not the first rule of medicine to “first do no harm?” Scenar follows this far better than all of the garbage propagated by Western “Medicine” and therefore all anyone needs to do is try it for themselves. I don’t need to worry about the Therapuetic Goods Assn or the 6 o’clock news because if I didn’t want my Scenar I would just send it back and get a refund. I’ve decided to keep mine as it not only works on me, but others I let try it – time and time again.

        One thing I will agree on is the websites are ridiculous. They make it seem like a total fraud. But remember, the people that make these websites are not the people that invented the technology. It’s still a low budget deal especially in marketing and I wouldn’t expect that to change to soon. That has nothing to do with efficacy though.

        As far as your words on God, I can at least say I warned you.

        Proverbs 9:10, Matthew 10:33

    Vincent said:
    January 30, 2013 at 9:16 pm

    What a idiot. Why did I bother reading this dribble and why, even more, do I bother making a comment. Here is a bored blogger that has no knowledge about what he is talking about. Do your own research people, don’t blindly take these ravings as fact.

      rationalbrain responded:
      January 30, 2013 at 10:45 pm

      Yes! At last someone who does research.
      Perhaps you’d care to share the research with us Vincent.
      Please provide references to the studies from reputable institutions so that we can all learn how it really works.
      Oh, you didn’t mean THAT sort of research, did you?

      PS
      I wasn’t bored when I wrote that piece, but I’m sure bored with SCENAR now. All that time has passed, and still no-one
      has provided me with any decent evidence, other stories about their knee, grandmother, and other mystical mumbo-jumbo.
      I’ll get interested again when I see some real-world evidence – not partisan abuse from those who make a living from bilking people.

      PPS. I’m giving you a free swing this time. Keep up the abuse then it’s end of conversation. My rules, ok?

        Vincent said:
        January 31, 2013 at 5:35 pm

        Aha … I think you’ve given your motivation away. The whole point of this blog is about you not being bored. Its not SCENAR you are interested in, Research or no research. This is an opportunity for you to argue for the sake if arguing.

        You guessed right, I do make a living from helping people who are in pain. I am proud of what I do.

        I had a gent come in this morning who has been suffering chronic pain (now there is something we need to research!!) for 27 years after an horrendous car accident.
        He has tried every therapy imaginable over that time. Some have given him some relief. Some have not. Some therapies have been by “reputable” organisations using fully “researched” methods. Most of these have had nominal effect on the outcome of his pain. Little effect on improving the quality of his life.

        After three SCENAR sessions over 5 weeks he is smiling, telling me the pain he lives with is less by 30% and that he is very happy. I’m not going to ask him for proof. Its obvious to him he is in less pain. That Oxford University is not currently conducting double blind trials on the effacy of SCENAR therapy on chronic pain is not something that bothers this patient, nor the many that pass through these doors daily with similar experiences.

        As for “mystical mumbo jumbo”, you can use exactly the same terminology on our current X-ray and CAT scanning technology. It works, but we don’t yet understand how… we trust it because big numbers of people do. The ‘dangers” or potential damaging effect of the technology is still being researched.

        I’m all for research. Bring it on! Its easy for Big Pharma do do research on their “products” look at the billions of dollars they can throw into funding “independent” research. Can’t do that with the likes of SCENAR, just don’t have the dollars. Still, it works.

        Australia’s Parramatta Eels (football club) are using SCENAR Therapy this year (2013) to manage their player injuries. You can follow what is being done on their official website. They seem more concerned that the technology works for them (it is important to them that it does!) than they do that SCENAR comes with a “research pedigree.”

        Having said all that, I am aware of research currently being conducted in Australia and the USA. on SCENAR. Frankly, the results of this and the more than 100 hundred studies done by the Russians from the last nearly 30 years will have a minimal impact on the lives of the people that SCENAR is now successfully treating.

        rationalbrain responded:
        February 1, 2013 at 8:10 am

        Seriously, that’s your big ‘aha’ moment?
        No, I’m bored with scenar, because you and your fellow enthusiasts consistently duck the evidence thing. Yes, yes, you keep telling me about your latest conquest, but that doesn’t do it for me – that much should be clear.
        And I generally only enjoy arguing if either: a. it amuses me, or b. I really want to defend my point of view. Actually my motivation is irrelevant. My blog – I’ll argue if I want to, or not. Deal with it.

        But to answer a couple of your points:

        1. Yes, clearly you and others practitioners of dubious modalities rely on the fact that your patients don’t care about reality.

        2. I know how Xray and CAT work. You should too. What sort of qualifications do you have anyway? Medical science has understood that for years. And because we understand the mechanism (not just that they work), we can do stuff like focus them, measure and record dose effects, and so on. You are just arguing from personal incredulity. I hope you’re not one of these Insane Clown Posse types who marvels at magnetism too. How does that work??? Wow that’s some weird shit. Therefore it must be god. Really, get yourself to google, or buy a book – it’s elementary physics.

        3. I don’t buy that ‘we’re too poor to do research line’. That’s the first defence of all alternative medicine salesmen. And yet the market for alternative medicines and modalities is also in the billions. Yes, Big Pharma sells homeopathy too. It actually costs very little to have a reputable university do simple trials. See my articles on Elmore. They did a simple trial at Latrobe university here, which cost very little according to the researchers I spoke to. But Elmore only did the one real trial. Why? Same reason scenar people don’t want trials. They don’t expect a favourable outcome. Hence pathology of a scam.

        4. Yes, football clubs are the leading edge of medical science, populated with geniuses right (especially that code of football)? Wrong. Footballers, golfers, tennis players etc etc all wore those pathetic energy bracelets too because they thought they worked. Give me a break.

        5. OK, so I ask you again – point me at the studies you talk about. Why are you so coy about passing on the details? Frankly the fact that something simply is Russian does not make it credible. Those websites pushing scenar are pure fiction. Really? You’re going to maintain that scenar cures all the things they claim, and claim to have tested? Here’s a small list from a random website (http://www.scenar-revenko.ru):

        Nervous system (various diseases of the vertebral column with secondary disorders of the nervous activity, static and dynamic’s disorders of the vertebral column, deformation of the spinal column, radiculitis, neuritis, strokes and their consequences, diseases of the vegetative nervous system etc.);
        Skeletal-muscular system (myositis, arthritis, arthrosis, bruising of the soft tissue, at the fractures at different stages of the process);
        Respiratory system (tracheitis, bronchitis, viral infection, pneumonia, pleurisy, bronchial asthma);
        Cardio-vascular system (angina, hypertonia, hypotonia, various form of arrhythmia), vessels of the extremities (endarteritis, varicose veins, disturbance of micro-circulation, trophic ulcers);
        Digestive system (gastritis, enteritis, colitis, cholecystitis, hepatitis);
        Genito-urinary system (pyeloneophritis, cystitis, disturbance of the cycle, adnexitis, infertility, toxicosis in pregnancy);
        Tooth and mouth cavity diseases (periodontosis, periodontitis, arresting of inflammation and complication after the treatment of pulpitis and periodontitis, arresting pain syndrome);
        Other pathological conditions and their combinations.

        Really? You can cure viral infections? hepatitis? infertility? angina? Yeah, right.

        When I go on to read the bullshit on ‘how it works’, yes it is just sciencey mumbo-jumbo, which has no credibility in the real science world. It’s basically re-heated oriental energy line therapy stuff.

        So you can call me names, uncover my ‘real’ motivations, and beat your chest all you like, but until you cough up some independent evidence that doesn’t rely on isolated anecdotes, and is by someone WHO IS NOT SELLING the device or associated services, you’re going to lose this particular argument.

        Which amuses me.

        Vincent said:
        February 1, 2013 at 8:48 am

        Ah … at last common ground : You amuse me too.
        Now take your nice little blog back into a dark corner and continue to amuse yourself.

        rationalbrain responded:
        February 1, 2013 at 8:57 am

        So, still no evidence then?
        And what about the things you can cure – no comment on that?
        Fits the pattern.
        And it’s ironic that you toss out a ‘dark corner’ comment, when I’m the one trying to shed light on this crap. Why don’t you want anyone to examine it?
        If not taking things on faith is staying in a dark corner, yep, that’s me.
        Happy to resume if you can provide some decent information rather than hysterical hand-waving.
        Over and out.

        Todd said:
        February 2, 2013 at 7:38 am

        Don’t waste your time on this buffoon. If he truly cared about research and was objective like any real scientist is- he wouldn’t call it a scam without any research to back up his claim, he’d say “it’s too early to form an opinion based on limited research”.

        What he will do is accuse those who use it, of doing no research, but in reality, they have done more research than he– they tried the technology. Thats’s more than sitting around whining about how not enough research has been done. He just wants to get attention. He offers literally nothing constructive to the discussion. The blog is a-la “The Little Boy Who Cried Wolf”

        rationalbrain responded:
        February 2, 2013 at 7:45 pm

        Welcome back Todd.
        Geez, you guys really get worked up don’t you. Now you’re helping out your mate with some abuse, eh?
        It’s a common pattern, I’m used to it.

        You know, one of the reasons I started this thing was to promote the method of science, and yes, I bemoan its absence often.
        Your latest contribution (apart from the abuse) is a case in point.

        You want ME to do ‘research’ to disprove scenar. Well it’s not the way science works. If you have a theory or a claim, the onus is on you to prove it. The wilder the claim, the greater the proof required. Get it?

        When I use the word ‘research’ or ‘studies’, I don’t mean have a play around with it and see if it works for me. I mean do a set of experiments designed to demonstrate whether your claim has merit across the population. Something may work for me or a small set of people, but may be useless or harmful for others. For example look at breast cancer. Millions of women have lived healthy lives as a result of the development of Tamoxifen. If you started practicing oncology without training in medicine, physiology, pharmacology etc (I guess like scenar therapists who claim to treat diabetes), and seeing breast cancer patients, you could hand this out, and get a good hit rate – i.e the majority of your patients would have a good outcome. But if it hadn’t been tested on millions of patients, you wouldn’t know that for some forms of cancer (in which the cancer is not hormone receptor positive for oestrogen) the treatment is useless, and you need to do something else. So without testing you would just muddle along thinking it worked for the first three that came in, I’ll just keep doing it, oblivious to the harm being caused.

        This is the principle of falsifiability. What that means is that we accept that nothing can really be proven beyond doubt (although some things are pretty close – like gravity, evolution, quantum theory etc), so instead we do experiments which will highlight an weaknesses in the theory. That’s why when someone says, say, that they have telekinesis, they can make the claim all day long, but ultimately must put it to the test. If the claim is solid, it won’t be falsified, and we will start to build belief.

        The further some claim is from what we already know about the world, the higher the standard of evidence we demand. That same was demanded of relativity, and decades later we are still testing at finer and finer detail.

        So when you and your buddies tell me that they can cure diabetes with a tiny battery powered oscillator of the kind I built when I was a kid, I compare this claim to what we already know about medical science. I’m no doctor, but I know enough about biology and technology to ask ‘can a tiny buzz on the skin, which we know to carry only a millimeter or so into the dermal layer, get any sort of signal or contact to the organ involved? Even if they could, is the disease susceptible to electrical signals in this way, when we know that no other diseases respond this way, other than high-energy blasting by a laser or radiation of other sort?

        Another example – all those modalities which rely on ‘energy flow’ or ‘energy’ emitted by the body which can be manipulated by hands, or needles, or whatever. Electrical engineers have developed equipment which can detect a signal the power of a fridge light from beyond the edge of the solar system. This is a really, really small signal. And yet, we have yet to be able to measure such unexplained energy flows from point blank range. Sure, we see neurons firing, and blood flows etc, but there’s no other source of energy other than that produced by our natural biochemistry. So why can’t we detect it? If your hands, needles or oscillators can interfere with it, why can’t we measure it? Very curious.

        Can you see why I’m skeptical? Can you see that some things, when we consider them in light of the real world, are just far fetched?

        So, I’ll try once more – to you or any scenarite, do you claim you can cure diabetes? If so, how do you know to make this claim? In how many people will it be effective? And what is the optimum dose or frequency of treatment? Is there an interaction with anything else? Are other organ functions affected? You see, to answer the questions, studies must be done. But where are they? Like the mysterious energy flows in the body, they are conspicuous by their absence.

        So I’m really asking you the question would love a straight answer: do you claim you can cure diabetes?

        Once again, instead of elucidation, I expect abuse.
        But I can hope.

        Todd said:
        February 2, 2013 at 9:28 pm

        I can understand skepticism, but as I pointed out, a real scientist doesn’t claim something is a scam because the research isn’t available, only when the research proves it’s a scam. You are dead wrong to label it so.

        Do I claim to cure anything? I believe that there are no incurable diseases, only incurable patients. And while everybody wants a cure, the reality is what we should really be striving for is to help our bodies heal themselves. Ultimately, the body does the healing. Do I think Scenar is a help? I know it is. I’ve seen it work. It’s no placebo and it’s far more effective than any other energy medicines I’ve ever used or heard of. How does it work? No idea. The guy who invented it doesn’t go around telling people and nobody can figure it out, not even the “copycat” Scenars are the same. It’s the remnants of an old USSR Cosmonaut health project. All I know is research is great, but it’s not everything.

        rationalbrain responded:
        February 2, 2013 at 9:52 pm

        You see? You offer homilies instead of information ‘no incurable diseases only incurable patients’. This is just new age nonsense – what does it even mean?. And let me make this clear: I called it a scam because my research tells me so. That’s exactly what the whole ‘pathology of scam’ is all about. It’s all about those claims made by people which have all the hallmarks of a scam – dodging the nasty ‘evidence’ question, relying on anecdotes, and so forth.

        To not even contemplate some decent trials is just breathtakingly arrogant, and frankly, tells us all how dodgy this therapy is.

        And if you buy the USSR cosmonaut thing, you’re even more gullible than I thought. If you expect me to believe it because some website said so, then you must think I’m REALLY dumb. Your last sentence or two is just a cop-out. Really? the inventor doesn’t tell anyone? No-one can figure it out? Sounds like that magic magnetism again. Perhaps it’s just a miracle in a box. Bullshit.

        Any you’re wrong – real scientists do call SCAM when you are trying to rip people off selling a therapy for which there is no evidence of efficacy. That’s EXACTLY what the Therapeutic Goods Administration did to scenar salesmen in Australia. That’s exactly what real science does when someone is selling gadgets for ‘polarising’ your fuel to get better mileage, or a bracelet to make you play golf better, or a perpetual motion machine, or a baby oil with miraculous curative properties. Need I go on? Otherwise, we would still be in the dark ages, and you would be selling machines for turning lead into gold.

        So, if you take money in return for offering to help any of the major diseases claimed on the scenar websites (unlike the aches and pains which would resolve anyway), like diabetes, you can try to convince yourself otherwise, but from the outside, it’s a scam. Pure and simple.

        I really don’t think we can get any more out of this conversation, unless you have something more constructive to offer.
        I’ve presented the evidence of why I think it’s a scam, but you haven’t provided any evidence that it works. You didn’t even TRY to address any of the arguments I put to you in the previous post. You just give me more weasel words.

        Can you, or can you not, cure disease, any disease, with scenar?.

        YES or NO will do – if you can’t manage that, then don’t bother responding.

        Todd said:
        February 3, 2013 at 6:29 am

        You call research listening to people’s claims and deciding they’re false! LOL

        What a hypocrite!

        I’ll tell you what can’t be cured- your irrational brain. Try a real Scenar unit on an injury and get back to me. Until then, don’t waste any more of my time on what I know what works- whether it has been tested thoroughly enough for you or not, I really don’t care.

        Go take an FDA approved pill that gives you an erection that lasts more than 4 hours, and when that problem persists you take consolation in – “hey, it’s tested…”

    Vincent said:
    February 2, 2013 at 10:47 pm

    Sorry, Mate, you are the only SCAM here.

    I’m not going to talk SCENAR with you.. Just not scientific enough for me.
    You can’t even get your references to the TGA right.

    Anything and everything you read from Mr Google is unfiltered by your ‘scientific’ reasoning to fuel your unreasonable dogma. Because you don’t like something therefore it is a scam. You decided it was a scam even before you did your google research. You weren’t researching you were looking for junk to support your decision.

    You have no idea what you are talking about, and the more you write, the more you show that to the world.

    You wouldn’t know “evidence’ if you fell over it. Even your questions are unscientific. Your best question has to be “Does SCENAR cure Diabetes.” Good grief, are you serious? What planet do you come from?!

    I for one (another one) am not going to give you any of the evidence you pretend to look for, You may convince a few to joint you in your witch hunt. Frankly it makes no difference, There are real scientists out there making a living out of helping people get the best of their lives. Thinking people will succeed with or without your narrow blogg.

      rationalbrain responded:
      February 3, 2013 at 4:15 pm

      Well, it seems neither of you will tell me whether or not Scenar can cure disease. Any disease.
      You feign outrage, but really it just gives you an out from admitting that you can’t make that claim.
      Just go on frothing at the mouth, instead of illuminating your argument.
      Just go on telling us how little I know, instead of setting the record straight.
      Just go on denying that the medical establishment wants nothing to do with scenar.
      And just go on denying that the TGA has done a number on your precious toy, and mumble about my poor referencing.
      That way readers can see the sham that the scenar industry is.

      To other readers with a balanced view, this is exactly the kind of song and dance which typifies shonky therapies.
      Build a fog around your therapy. Accuse bloggers of trying to destroy it, and not understanding it.
      Accuse big pharma of being scared of it because it’s so good.
      Admit you don’t understand how it works and pretend not to care.
      Pump it up because it was invented by the russians / ancient chinese / cavemen.
      Imply that it does everything, including cure very stubborn diseases, but stop short of stating it plainly.

      End of thread (unless more illuminating information comes forward).

    Richard Sierakowski said:
    February 14, 2013 at 3:36 am

    This finding may throw some light on this subject:

    http://www.tgacrp.com.au/?pageID=13&special=complaint_single&complaintID=1658

    Scenar Health Pty Ltd were required to retract their advertising:

    Complaint 2010-04-021 Scenar (2)
    Meeting held 7 October 2010

    RETRACTION

    An advertisement for the Scenar device, which we published on this website, should not have been published.

    In the advertisement we made a large number of misleading, unverified, and unlawful claims. These included unlawfully made claims that the Scenar device could have benefits in relation to abdominal pain, neck pain, shoulder pain, chronic pain, broken bones, dysmenorrhoea, groin injuries, knee damage, headaches, allergies, scoliosis, kyphosis, shingles, tinnitus, viral infections, whiplash, and many other health conditions.

    A complaint about the advertisement was recently upheld by the Complaints Resolution Panel. We provided no evidence to support the claims we made, and the Panel found that the claims were unlawful, misleading, and unverified and breached the Therapeutic Goods Advertising Code.

      Vincent said:
      February 14, 2013 at 9:19 am

      Get a life Richard and know what it it is you are talking about before you make a post.

      Are you implying that because a retailer published words contrary to regulation of the day that therefore there is no scientific basis to SCENAR?! lol

        rationalbrain responded:
        February 14, 2013 at 4:38 pm

        Yes, that’s exactly what he’s implying.
        And he’s correct.

        Vincent said:
        February 14, 2013 at 4:42 pm

        Ha ha

    James said:
    March 8, 2013 at 5:14 am

    I used SCENAR last year after I broke my ankle skiing. The SCENAR was used directly on the break while I waited for 5 hours in an emergency department that was overrun with several spinal traumas which meant no doctors were able to see me or give me any pain medication.
    The Scenar worked fine in blocking the pain of the break and the emergency surgeon when he examined my ankle was surprised that there was little inflamation after the x rays showed I needed surgery for the fracture.
    I continued to use the Scenar for pain management for the next 24 hours while waiting for the surgery all without any medication.
    After the surgery I continued to use the Scenar for pain management all without the use of medications.
    I continued using Scenar for the next several weeks to manage pain while the bone healed.
    Scenar definitely worked in blocking the pain and I don’t need any study to tell me otherwise. It just works. Period.

      rationalbrain responded:
      March 8, 2013 at 10:28 am

      So the emergency room is equipped with scenar?
      Sounds like they’ve drunk the kool-aid too.
      Don’t you realise they’re just giving you a placebo treatment to keep you quiet?
      Inserting fine needles, or remote healing would have worked just as well, as long as the person delivering it was wearing a white coat.
      Good for you. As long as you believe it, then great.
      And by the way, sounds like a great advertisement. Literally.
      Do you have any interest other than as a patient? Say, oh, as a practitioner or salesman for scenar? Just a hunch.

      Todd said:
      March 8, 2013 at 4:15 pm

      Don’t worry James- it won’t be good enough for him or any other naysayer on here. They NEED to trash it otherwise their entire world breaks down. Just don’t pay any attention to them.

      More and more people are learning about Scenar everyday. The real crime is there is no way the “mainstream” media will ever tout anything other than Western Med treatments as legit as they are owned by the same people that produce the drugs etc. All the corps tie in together in a framework the general public falls prey to everyday. Welcome to the world of eat cheeseburgers, don’t exercise and take drugs until you need surgery. That’s health. LOL

    James said:
    March 9, 2013 at 2:05 am

    No the emergency room did not provide the device. A friend of mine who owns one provided it for me and they attached the device to me using some self adhesive electrode pads then drove me to hospital.
    Actually the surgeon was not wearing a white coat either – pale blue cardigan if I remember correctly. His words were when he saw the device “pretty sweet pain device you have there – do you need any other meds?”. So he must have seen something similar before.
    All I can say is if it is a placebo – then damn good placebo. I was very doubtful it would be effective so it wasn’t because I believed in it. If it hadn’t worked I would have been begging for pills. Broken ankles hurt a lot especially when the bones grind together.
    what is remote healing? That comment doesn’t sound like a very rational one at all.

      rationalbrain responded:
      March 9, 2013 at 9:27 am

      Remote healing includes a variety of handwaving therapies like therapeutic touch and the like, and no its not very rational, but is nonetheless a placebo.
      Actually i will accept that scenar could provide some pain relief… much like rubbing a sore spot. There is at least some superficial plausibility for that.
      As for Todd, for someone who tells you to ignore me, he certainly likes to participate!
      Bottom line for me.. if it feels good,fine, but cure your diabetes? I think not.

        Todd said:
        March 9, 2013 at 9:46 am

        I participate merely to debunk your ignorance among those who may be researching and open to Scenar.

        I find your ignorance and assertions that Scenar is a placebo absolutely offensive and completely inappropriate as you have done no testing to back up such a statement.

        Your stubbornness is obviously never-ending and you are a waste to listen to and/or speak to as you have your mind made up with literally no information or experience on the subject. Nothing could be further from rational- the irony of the situation.

        rationalbrain responded:
        March 9, 2013 at 12:36 pm

        Yes well be offended.
        All i have ever said is that there is no objective evidence that scenar works nor any plausible explanation for how it might work.
        If it is SO wonderful then you would think there might be at least ONE persuasive study. Anything. Show me any study from anywhere which shows any ailment cured. There are none. Nada. Zip.
        Your response is that its a conspiracy and that im irrational for not taking your word for it.
        Well thats life. Deal with it.
        In the mean time always happy to look at any evidence ofher than a bunch of lame anecdotes. Thats what rational means. You need to deal with that too.

        Todd said:
        March 9, 2013 at 12:40 pm

        No thats not all you say. You assert that it is a placebo based on ZERO information. Therefore you draw a conclusion without investigation. This is neither rational nor scientific. You should call yourself “Worthless Opinion Man” instead.

        rationalbrain responded:
        March 9, 2013 at 7:59 pm

        Yes play the man not the issue. Nice style.
        As i said I HAVE investigated and come up empty handed.
        Maybe you could assist by pointing to evidence instead of dishing out abuse.
        When you do (and i doubt that you can or will) ill take this discussion seriuosly otherwise its over and out.

        Todd said:
        March 9, 2013 at 11:49 pm

        You have put forth no information on first hand investigation. You just bring up actions taken by associations that act on false claims. The issue is your lack of work on the subject. Have you ever used Scenar on yourself or another person to test its efficacy? Of course not. You’re just a blowhard.

        rationalbrain responded:
        March 10, 2013 at 9:33 am

        OK, so you agree that there are false claims made by scenar therapists? This is what I’m saying.
        And you continue to miss the point. I can’t validate scenar by testing it on me and my dog. That is not science! That’s just personal experience.
        Have you not heard a word?
        If we can’t get past this then there’s no hope.
        End of transmission.

    James said:
    March 9, 2013 at 3:46 pm

    Hey Rationalbrain
    Your missing the point – Scenar cures pain, it blocks it. Pain is considered one of the biggest ills now on the planet. Many people who have been “cured” of cancer for instance still suffer from pain associated with their condition even though they no longer have the disease. If Scenar can help those people without the use of drugs then that is a useful tool. Not everything sold in a pharmacy for instance is a cure for a disease. People buy things to wipe themselves with, clean & moisturize their skin, clean their teeth and hair etc etc. Now a device that fixes people up who are in pain without the use of drugs is in my opinion a very useful device regardless of whether it “cures” anybody of any disease. You shouldn’t be so critical of it. I’m sure Scenar can do very little for anybody with diabetes but it is a useful tool for pain relief and therefor has a valid place in the medical market place.

      rationalbrain responded:
      March 9, 2013 at 8:04 pm

      Sorry i dont think i missed the point i think you did. Ive aleeady conceded that you may get pain relief. What im saying is that there is zero evidence AND plausibility that it cures any of the illnesses claimed on the various websites. Ive been using diabetes as just one example of the many unproven claims made. Have you seen any decent evidence? If you can point to any half decent studies id be happy to change my mind. But the evidence just seems to be a big secret. Have a look yourself and see what you can come up with.

        James said:
        March 10, 2013 at 5:17 am

        Well I did find this:
        [The effectiveness of SCENAR therapy in complex treatment of duodenal ulcer, and the mechanisms of its action].
        [Article in Russian]
        Tsimmerman IaS, Kochurova IA, Vladimirskiĭ EV.
        Abstract
        A new technique of low-frequency modulated electric current therapy, SCENAR therapy, was used in treatment of 103 patients with duodenal ulcer (DU). The influence of SCENAR therapy on the main clinical and functional indices of a DU relapse was studied. It was shown that SCENAR therapy, which influences disturbed mechanisms of adaptive regulation and self-regulation, led to positive changes in most of the parameters under study. Addition of SCENAR therapy to the complex conventional pharmacotherapy fastened ulcer healing, increased the effectiveness of Helicobacter pylori eradication, and improved the condition of the gastroduodenal mucosa.

        rationalbrain responded:
        March 10, 2013 at 9:35 am

        Seen it.
        If you are able to get the study in English, let me know. This is not useful.
        And if you believe that this pissy instrument can in any way affect ulcers, you are more gullible than I first thought.

        James said:
        March 10, 2013 at 5:21 am

        and this
        SCENAR THERAPY FOR MYOFASCIAL PAIN SYNDROME
        INBOHAN,MD
        Department of Neurosurgery, Pochon СНА University, College of Medicine, 351, Yatapdong, Bundang-Gu, Sungnam, 463-712, Korea
        RYOONGHUH,MD
        Department of Neurosurgery, Pochon СНА University, College of Medicine, 351, Yatapdong, Bundang-Gu, Sungnam, 463-712, Korea у
        ABSTRACT
        SCENAR device generates electrical impulses that are physiologically similar to
        neuroimpulses. Pain is the most common complaint to be dealt with in the SCENAR therapy by
        block of transmission of the pain impulses in the nerve endings of the peripheral nerve fibers,
        pain focus suppression of brain cortex, and reduction of the edema around the nerve fibers
        leading to reduction of pressure effect. We investigated the usefulness and effectiveness of
        SCENAR therapy in patients with MPS. SCENAR therapy was performed in 202 patients with
        MPS. The ratio of male to female was 1:4.5. The mean age was 47.3 years (range: 18-75 years).
        The mean follow up period was 6 months (range: 3 months-16months). The visual analogue scale
        (VAS) was used to assess the effectiveness of SCENAR therapy. The overall improvement of
        pain was 89%. Especially, the improvement of acute pain was good, and all patients presenting
        MPS was satisfactory. This study suggests that SCENAR therapy would be very useful new
        method to deal with MPS.
        INTRODUCTION
        Myofascial pain syndrome (MPS) is a local or regional musculoskeletal pain disorder that may
        involve either a single muscle or a muscle group. It develops due to any number of causes
        including sudden trauma to musculoskeletal tissues. It seems to occur in virtually everyone’s lives
        at some point but becomes chronic and intractable in some cases. MPS has a significant impact on
        functional status, restricting occupational activities with marked socioeconomic repercussions. The
        management of MPS encompasses a range of different interventions, including trigger point
        injections, drug, exercise, patient education, physiotherapy, and alternative therapies. The
        treatment goals are to relieve pain, reduce muscle spasm, improve strength and range of motion,
        promote early return to activity, encourage active coping strategies, and ultimately improve
        functional status. The risks and benefits of these treatments vary. SCENAR standing for Self
        Controlled Energo Neuro Adaptive Regulator was first invented in Russia in mid 80s. We
        experienced the clinical benefit provided by SCENAR therapy and demonstrated the effectiveness
        of SCENAR therapy.
        ISBN: 978-81-904262-8-2(RPS) ©2007 WACBE’07. All rights reserved.
        METHODS
        The study population was composed of 202 patients with MPS. The ratio of male to female was 1:
        4.5. The mean age was 47.3 years (range: 18-75 years). SCENAR therapy was performed between
        August 2005 and December 2006. The mean frequency of this treatment was 3 times a week
        and the mean duration time per each treatment was 5 minutes. The mean follow up
        period was 6 months (range: 3 months- 16months). The visual analogue scale (VAS) was used
        to assess the effectiveness of SCENAR therapy.
        RESULTS
        The overall improvement of pain was 89%. Especially, the improvement of acute pain was good,
        and all patients presenting MPS was satisfactory.

        rationalbrain responded:
        March 10, 2013 at 9:38 am

        I’ve already accepted that there is a possibility that the device could improve perception of pain.
        But again, need structure of the study. Doesn’t tell us whether it was blinded. If not, then the study is useless.

        James said:
        March 10, 2013 at 5:27 am

        and this

        Scenar and Bone Fractures

        Study in 2007 at the Rostov-on-Don City Hospital No.20, Child Traumatology Department

        One of the main negative effects on pediatric health is skeletal and locomotor trauma, with a constantly growing number of permanently handicapped children. Over 600,000 bone fractures are diagnosed in children every year in Russia.

        The Child Traumatology department in Rostov-on-Don is based at City Hospital No.20, and is one of one of the country’s largest, serving as the study base for the Child Surgery and Orthopedic Chair of the Rostov State Medical University. Staff combine medical duties with teaching, and new scientific developments are widely integrated.

        Llimb fractures are generally treated through manual repositioning of fragments, followed by gypsum cast immobilization. If repositioning failes, operative treatment is used, plus medication, physiotherapy and physical therapy exercise.

        Normal bone fracture regeneration involves formation of bone callus, and the healing process proceeds in stages. In the first 3-4 days, the primary blastome is formed – a preparation stage when materials for the regeneration are stockpiled. Between Day 3-4 and 12-15, the second stage begins – formation and differentiation of tissue structures, with scar or cartilage tissue regeneration. The third stage involves nvolves bone callus formation, and lasts until the first to second month. The fourth and final stage, when the secondary reconstruction and restoration of the original bone structure takes place, can continue for months.

        There are also profund non-local changes in blood pressure, heartbeat, breathing, and in blood and urine composition.

        The Study

        Patients (32 children aged 4 to 17, 21 boys and 11 girls) were admitted to the hospital in the acute period (1 to 3 hours following injury) with local pain, swelling and limb deformation. All underwent X-ray, general blood and urine analysis.

        The children were randomly distributed into two groups: the first group (13 patients – 9 boys, 4 girls) received SCENAR treatment. The second, control group (19 patients – 12 boys, 7 girls) had traditional treatment.

        Scenar therapy was given daily with a Scenar 97.5 device, in constant and individual measured modes. Treatment consisted of 5-8 sessions lasting 20-40 minutes each. Both general zones (”three pathways and six points”) and reciprocal areas on the symmetric limb were treated. the only medications administered were analgesics (during the first two days).

        Results

        In five of the patients, the first SCENAR treatment on the first day had already greatly relieved the pain.
        In seven more patients, the first session showed improved microcirculation and reduced swelling.
        By the third to fourth treatment, none of the patients complained of pain.
        By the end of treatment, none of the patients showed neuro-circulatory
        disorders, and all were in satisfactory condition.
        At the same time, in the control group the pain subsided only by the second to third day of treatment, and a visible decrease in swelling took as much as four to five days.
        Irrespective of the complexity of their fractures, all patients responded well to Scenar therapy, and there was not a single case of it worsening the condition.

        Depending on the type of fracture, X-rays were made one, two, three or four weeks later, and all were monitored after leaving hospital at the city traumatology centre.
        The average time for the appearance of primary bone callus in SCENAR-treated children was 25.6 ± 2.4 days, while in the control group this took 33.5 ± 2.5 days. Some individual cases showed more dramatically faster reduction in swelling and formation of bone callus.

        Conclusions

        Scenar allowed a decrease of fracture consolidation time in children by 7.3 ± 3.1 days, stimulating bone tissue repair, without side effects and complications. This allowed application of gypsum casts for a shorter period of time and an earlier commencement of regenerative treatment.

        Todd said:
        March 10, 2013 at 12:58 pm

        A) Nothing will ever be good enough for him/her

        B) He/She brings no evidence to the table whatsoever, not even a test on him/herself (or the dog)

        yet…

        C) He/she has an opinion founded on this lack of experience or knowledge and throws out other studies because they were “in Russian”. It’s a waste of time talking to an infinitely ignorant person. Like the great doctor said, “There are no incurable diseases, just incurable patients…”

        It’s amazing how this irrational brain criticizes science done by others yet has none to support his/her claim that it is a placebo. Let me know when you have THAT study.

        Vincent said:
        March 10, 2013 at 8:58 pm

        James, don’t waste your time. When ‘rational brain’ leaves school he will learn to think for himself. His brain will develop sufficiently to realise there its more to science that what he has been grain feed in class. He is racist in his views and narrow generally. All that feeds him is his ego. He is not interested in truth, especially if it shakes his superstitious view of science. Actually, maybe we give him more credit than he is due. His blog it’s merely for entertainment. His entertainment.

        I have considerable research available about SCENAR, which we were able to present at Canberra in March 2011. We were pleased with the response. Of course we need more research. It would be un scientific to discuss details here. “… Don’t cast your pearls among the swine…” (Matt 7:6).

        rationalbrain responded:
        March 10, 2013 at 11:32 pm

        You guys are proficient with the abuse, aren’t you?
        Seems to be a common thread.
        So, you have considerable research available. Since for some reason it would be ‘unscientific’ to publish it here (how convenient), perhaps you’ll tell us where it is published please.
        Public Library of Science?
        British Medical Journal?
        New England Journal of Medicine?
        or perhaps some Cochrane reviews of the totality of research?
        Yes, tell us the peer reviewed journal in which this research appeared. That would be scientific, right?
        And please, I have already stipulated to pain relief. Give me the stuff on how it cures diabetes.

        Or maybe you can all just keep throwing around the insults, and deluding yourselves that all you need to do is yell loud enough and someone will believe you, or at least not be put off filling your pockets in return for empty promises.

        James said:
        March 10, 2013 at 5:30 am

        and this

        Scenar and Stroke Rehabilitation

        B.P.Kulizhskiy
        S.S.Kulizhskaya
        A.I.Maar
        O.V.Minayev

        SCENAR therapy in Ischemic Stroke Rehabilitation

        According to statistics from the Ministry of Health Care and Social Development of the Russian Federation and the World Health Organization (WHO), stroke incidence has risen greatly in recent years. Yet after discharge from hospital, patients rarely receive rehabilitation, and even then, measures are usually incomplete. Local outpatient clinics are often unable to provide adequate care to such patients due to lack of time, staff (rehabilitation and speech therapists, psychologists, masseurs etc.) and facilities. This research is current as we suggest a new multiple approach to post-stroke rehabilitation, with SCENAR as a basic therapy.

        SCENAR therapy provides the following well-known effects:

        Restoration, and compensation of lost, nervous connections (somatic component):
        • Autonomic Nervous System regulation
        • Superficial sensation
        • Deep sensation
        • Body scheme
        • Gross motor skills
        • Fine motor skills

        Recovery of cognitive functions:
        • Gnosis
        • Praxis
        • Speech

        Recovery of higher mental and behavioral functions
        • Emotional component
        • Behavioral component

        Research objective – a clinical trial using SCENAR as a basic therapy in post-stroke rehabilitation.

        Tasks:

        • Determine and evaluate practical effectiveness of SCENAR therapy in rehabilitation.
        • Develop most effective methods of SCENAR use.
        • Work out guidelines on using SCENAR in post-stroke rehabilitation.

        The patient population included post-stroke patients who had the disease for 3 months to 1 year and had no special rehabilitation care before. All the patients had the diagnosis confirmed by neuro-imaging, and received in-patient care for a total of 43 people – 37 male and 6 female – examined and treated from 01.11.08 till 01.07.09. Patient ages ranged from 45 to 75 years, mean age – 58. As a control group, we examined 18 more people (male), having conventional drug rehabilitation under the care of a district neurologist and therapist, who suffered ischemic stroke at the same time as those who received SCENAR-therapy. The age of people included in the control group corresponds to the target age of the therapeutic groups.

        Treatment Design

        Combination of SCENAR therapy and corrective mechanical therapy in order to restore deep proprioceptive sensation and coordination of movements.

        The patients were divided into 2 groups depending on the therapeutic strategies applied:

        • Treatment of central zones only (‘Collar zone’, ‘3 pathways and 6 points’), head (comb electrode).
        • Treatment of distal parts of the limbs and head (comb electrode).

        All patients received 12 sessions daily from a SCENAR therapist, followed by treatment at home for 2 weeks (the sessions were given by family members using the guidelines provided by the doctor). In addition to SCENAR therapy, all patients received conventional drug therapy considering the severity of condition and coexistent pathology.

        Control methods

        In view of the heterogeneity and small size of the total population, we used short statistical processing. Initially, therapeutic groups included the same number of patients but because of heterogeneous gender patterns and one out-of-order case, we have selected 18 patients in each group to be compared. So, we had 3 groups (18 people each): Central Techniques (Group 1), Peripheral Techniques (Group 2), and the Control (Group 3).

        The patients were checked twice – prior to the treatment period and right after the treatment period, that is 1 month after the initial check-up. The following methods have been selected for control:

        • Standard clinical and neurological examination with a detailed analysis of complaints and clinical presentations.
        • Quality-of-life assessment on a 10-point visual analogue scale.
        • 10 Words Test to evaluate short-term memory.
        • Schultz tables for attention assessment.

        Overall Findings

        Among all the patients treated, the condition has improved in 37 patients, 5
        patients had no significant changes, and in 1 patient – aggravation (patient aged 75, thrombosis in the region of posterior cerebral artery caused by chronic heart failure (CHF), chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), diabetes mellitus, and multiple organ pathology).

        Neurological examination revealed an improvement in all patients in the therapy groups,
        especially when compared with the control group. Two patients recovered from motor alalia with
        lingual embol (which lasted for 7 and 11 months), both cases – from Group 2.

        Within groups 1 and 2, despite obvious improvement, no significant difference in neurological picture was found. In the psychological test, significant difference was found between Group 1 (central techniques) and Group 2 (peripheral techniques); and a significant difference of the clinical picture as compared with the control Group 3. The psychological data are summarized in the Chart below.

        Central Techniques (n = 18)

        Peripheral Techniques (n = 18)

        Control (n = 18)

        Before After Before After Before After
        10 Words Test Primary 4.1 (±0.15)
        7.3 (±0.15)

        4.2 (±0.15) 7.8 (±0.15)
        4.4 (±0.15)

        4.5 (±0.15)
        Secondary 3.5 (±0.15) 6.3 (±0.15) 3.3 (±0.15) 7.0 (±0.15) 3.7 (±0.15) 3.6 (±0.15)
        Schulz Tables 242 (±2) 185 (±2) 253 (±2) 174 (±2) 233 (±2) 238 (±2)
        Quality of Life 4.4 (±0.2) 8.3 (±0.2) 4.7 (±0.2) 8.1 (±0.2) 4.5 (±0.2) 4.8 (±0.2)

        Discussion

        In the therapy groups, we achieved a significant neurological improvement that was also proven by neuro-imaging. From objective neurological data, we cannot judge yet which is more advantageous – Central or Peripheral Techniques. To do so, we need additional instrumental research, and a more homogeneous population whose data can be validated.

        However, we can state with confidence that month-long rehabilitation that includes SCENAR therapy is definitely far more effective than drug monotherapy. From psychological test data, peripheral techniques provide a more pronounced recovery of higher mental and cognitive functions, when used in rehabilitation after ischemic stroke. Nevertheless, central techniques also provide a significant effect as compared with the control group. To determine more clearly the tropism of the techniques to the patient’s condition, a more extensive study is required.

        Such rehabilitation also improves the patients’ quality of life, and decreases the level of
        depression and autoaggression. This allows recommending SCENAR therapy for treating psychosomatic and psychological disorders accompanied by depression. SCENAR therapy in multiple rehabilitation after ischemic stroke would allow highly optimistic results. Its therapeutic techniques are easy to learn and use. They can be safely applied by nurses and paramedical personnel – psychologists, rehabilitation and speech therapists, etc. Moreover, the treatment does not end in a therapist’s office, since patients can be trained to continue their treatment at home.

        Conclusions

        1. SCENAR therapy can be used as a basic therapy for rehabilitation of post-stroke patients.
        2. SCENAR therapy can be used not only by medical professionals but psychologists,
        rehabilitation and speech therapists (since it improves the quality of psychosomatic therapy, restores speech and cognitive functions and promotes faster recovery).
        3. Additional research and investigations are required, and treatment techniques should be further improved.

        rationalbrain responded:
        March 10, 2013 at 9:30 am

        James
        Yes, seen all this.
        Have you ever noticed how it’s always Russians ‘research’, and, never published in a decent journal? All quoted online or on some obscure website.
        Part of rational decision making is deciding what sources to trust. I don’t trust these sources, especially online resources not backed by an institution well known in research circles.
        The other reason I don’t trust this research is that it still doesn’t even attempt to explain how it works, except in double-speak crap science, just like all the scenar web sites out there.
        Again, sounds like you have more of an interest in this that a poor old patient.
        Good luck selling the stuff.

    Nicholas Horscroft said:
    March 27, 2013 at 5:02 am

    So I tore a muscle in my shoulder/rotator cuff. Made an appointment with a respected local physiotherapist & expected some massage, perhaps gentle stretching exercises.

    Instead she spent 45 minutes running this hand held device over my arm that she explained was a SCENAR. I had never heard of it – I’m naturally skeptical due to a lot of mystical baloney being forced on me in my early life.

    However, it stopped the pain. I didn’t have pain afterwards & had a greater range of movement. As I said, I didn’t know what this tech was, & certainly didn’t go into my appointment expecting a ‘miracle’ healing machine to fix me up.

    I further aggravated my injury & it hurt continually – the SCENAR did help with this although I still have some pain. I did have that strange sensation of ‘stickiness’ when the device went over my torn muscle – quite different to the sensation on an uninjured part of me.

    But obviously I knew a bit more about the device on my second visit – delayed placebo? I don’t think so. I’m intrigued.

    Dominic Spreadlove said:
    May 8, 2013 at 8:57 am

    your a sceptical fool who is either being paid to discredit this amazing tool or just plain ignorant.
    its the most amazing device and will revolutionise medicine very soon

      rationalbrain responded:
      May 8, 2013 at 4:43 pm

      It interesting how you and your colleagues instantly go to the insults. I could easily respond that ‘you are a fucking liar who makes money out of conning people with this device’, but I won’t because I have more class than that.
      So I’m being paid to discredit am I?. Are you not being paid to pump it up? The hypocrisy here is stunning.
      Yes I’m sceptical, which is why I’ve been asking for the evidence, but none of your mates have ever offered anything other than links to russian websites, whose authors also clearly have a financial interest in the device. Where are the trials? There are NONE. Give me one paper showing how diabetes has been cured, or any other disease for that matter.
      Revolutionise medicine? Yeah, right! The second christ is coming soon too.
      I would say that you’re kidding yourself, except that I believe you’re not. You know what you’re doing, right? You want to pump up the bogus industry that’s getting you cash.
      Please, spare us you ‘amazement’. Give us the facts.
      And try to do it without being nasty, or else there is no conversation.

        Todd said:
        May 9, 2013 at 2:16 pm

        Clearly you think we think you’re bogus and vice versa. If you think people are doing Scenar for money you’re delusional because only an idiot would fight the masses and popularity of traditional medicine for the poultry dollars it offers. Your argument is moronic in nature. I have the best Scenar unit there is and believe me- theres no money in it.

        rationalbrain responded:
        May 9, 2013 at 2:30 pm

        Listen guys.
        If only you would give away the personal attacks, and focus on the issues. Just try.
        I have two simple points to make:
        1. I accept that the device may confer some temporary pain relief, and perhaps hasten the repair of soft tissue injuries. I have used ultrasound devices myself in past so no issue with that sort of thing.
        2. There is no published clinical evidence of scenar curing any disease (eg diabetes), as is claimed on the various (mostly russian) websites. (‘Published’ meaning in reputable journals – not the websites themselves).

        That’s it. Simple.
        Please, give me ANY published clinical evidence of scenar curing disease and we’re done – I’m converted.
        But please, don’t expect people to simply believe your hand-waving or stories about your uncle. That aint evidence.

        If that’s idiotic, then perhaps I am.
        But at least I’m deranged on the side of reality, rather than magic.

        Todd said:
        May 9, 2013 at 2:42 pm

        I think the breakdown occurs when you qualify which sources are legit, as all the ones you will accept have refused to do any studies on Scenar. If you want a study on Scenar from Stanford Med you should call them. Don’t blame Scenar supporters for them not bothering with Scenar.

        rationalbrain responded:
        May 9, 2013 at 4:45 pm

        I don’t buy that, sorry.
        If scenar people were serious, they would pay to have a reputable organisation do the testing, much like pharma companies are required to do. Drugs and other therapies can undergo testing for years before being approved, or having efficacy confirmed. Scenar should take very little time.
        Do the math: If the scenar industry funded just one decent study, and it had positive results, it would mean you will have very little trouble convincing the world of what you say. For those out to make money, it would be a gold mine, right? Not only that, once published in a decent journal, other decent establishments would automatically seek to peer review the results, as well as replicate the results. If it all panned out, then great – you are now a legit therapy.
        Doesn’t this sound sensible?
        Why then hasn’t one single such study happened or been funded?
        My guess? No-one in the scenar industry really wants such close scrutiny, because deep down (or maybe not so deep down) they know what the result will be.

        And as to why no organisation has tested it – well I’d speculate that they are just applying what’s known as science-based medicine. For example, if you are in medical research looking at diabetes, you are looking at all the mechanisms by which you can fix diabetes. Naturally, you focus on those avenues which have ‘prior plausibility’ (see my article on Bayesian stats). You simply cant’ pick something out of thin air and try it, without having a decent argument as to the mechanism of action. To get research funding, proposals are extremely complex – no one is going to give you half a million bucks for a trial consisting of 500 people over two years, because the local practitioner said it works, or because your uncle swears by it. You actually need to convince them that it has a reasonable prospect of working.
        My point is, you can’t expect medical science to follow up on way out claims without at least some prior plausibility and/or mechanism of action. The ‘woo’ words associated with scenar are not a mechanism of action. To anyone with high school physics, they are just techno-babble.

        How to get around this? Easy. Fund your own trial. Make people sit up and take notice.

        Todd said:
        May 9, 2013 at 5:24 pm

        The only places that would even oblige are not what any “standard” practitioner would call decent. It would always be looked at as “out in left field” and assumed to be dubious. How much money do you think these Scenar companies even have? And would there be any acceptance of any studies they pay for anyway by traditional medical fields? I really really doubt it. I don’t think they are even worried about it. They are just letting people who try it out get the benefits. It’s not about cornering the market anyway, it’s about helping people doing what you love. If some people need clinical trails before they take the leap of faith and try it themselves, that’s their prerogative. Just don’t expect some small band of two bit Scenar companies (that are incidentally suing each other over the use of the word “Scenar”) to come together and get that study done. It is what it is and not likely to change. It’s best to either try it yourself or don’t- but if you’re waiting for clinical trails by a major university or med school etc. you better hunker down because it just isn’t going to happen anytime in the near future. Theres no incentive for them anyway since all their money comes from Big Pharm. What are they going to do, change teams if the study supports SCENAR?? LMFAO Never happen.

        rationalbrain responded:
        May 9, 2013 at 5:35 pm

        I’m not surprised at your response.
        You’re falling back on the old conspiracy nonsense. It’s all Big Pharma’s fault right?
        Not to mention all this ‘special pleading’ – you come up with a hundred reasons why there aren’t any clinical trials.
        Your characterisation of the scenar industry as the poor cousin is laughable. Someone’s making big bucks out of a device that is of little value, and no-one questions it.

        I assure you, if you went to your local university, and offered them 20 or 30k to do a quick trial, they’d jump on it. I’ve seen it happen with Elmore Oil, here at one of our local universities. In that case, the vendor buried the report, for obvious reasons, but the people who did the trial are still around to tell us the results.

        You can trot out all the touchy-feely nonsense about leaps of faith you like (sounds like religion to me), but scenar can’t be taken seriously by anyone with an ounce of common sense until you answer the basic question. Where has it ever cured diabetes or any disease. Where?

        But, now we’re going round in circles. I want trials. You say I shouldn’t want trials, and that they’re not necessary, or that no-one will do them anyway. Pretty lame.

        Todd said:
        May 9, 2013 at 5:43 pm

        When did I ever say you shouldn’t want trials? I said it’s anyones prerogative. Big bucks? Scenar? You’re kidding right?

        Dr Toni Bark said:
        May 18, 2013 at 8:07 am

        THere are trials underway at major institutions.
        no one is making big bucks off this device so far
        I have clinical trials underway at BU and ASU and am waiting to hear if I will receive a large grant from the army for further research as our preliminary results were so far quite good for treating PTSD
        the FDA has approved the device as a class two with indications for pain and injury
        you know nothing of what you write about
        your brain is clearly not rational or just plain ignorant

        rationalbrain responded:
        May 19, 2013 at 12:42 am

        I’ll ignore your ad hominen attacks since it’s your first post. It seems you scenar types are all too ready to dish out the insults. That tells me something.
        None-the-less, I’m pleased to hear you have trials underway. I look forward to them being published in a reputable journal, and happy to post the results here, good or bad.
        You readily call me ignorant. The only thing I accept that I’m ignorant about is the existence of any real trials on scenar. I’ve done as much research as a layman could expect to do, but have yet to find any (layman with respect to medicine – I do claim cred in chemistry, physics, engineering, mathematics and computer science). No matter how much I goad your colleagues into providing evidence of those trials NONE are forthcoming. NONE. Only russian websites, which are NOT evidence.
        Your FDA may have approved them for whatever, but the TGA here has slapped them down for making unsubstantiated claims – see my earlier posts.
        Again, I have already accepted that there may be some benefit for addressing pain, but give me evidence of any disease being cured, as claimed in the websites. I’m betting you have NONE, and you will continue to have NONE.
        Prove me wrong, and I undertake to publish it. I’ve only ever said show me some decent quality trials, which you should understand as a doctor (hopefully a proper MD). If it’s ignorant to ask for trials, then so be it.
        Actually, now that I’ve looked at your website, your cred has just gone down the toilet with me. Homeopathy. Really? If there’s one thing that’s been completely discredited it’s homeopathy. Bilking poor souls by selling them water. I’d rather be ‘ignorant’ by your definition than someone who knowingly sells this bullshit.
        I await the trial results with interest. But unless the trials are double-blind, placebo-controlled, then don’t bother. Now I’m betting you’ll tell me that that sort of trial can’t detect the effects of scenar/homeopathy, that it’s not holistic, that such a therapy can’t be fairly judged by modern science. The usual woo get-out clauses.
        We’ll see.

    Jake said:
    May 16, 2013 at 4:33 pm

    Hi RB.
    The point that you originally made has been lost in a sea of abuse and invective by people who are clearly making money out of the unsuspecting and desperate public. Scenario devices do not work. There is evidence that this type of “therapy” is extremely likely to elicit a hoped for response but there is no scientific evidence at all for any therapeutic effect. None.
    There are those who berate the drug companies in your blog. If there were one shred of evidence that Scendar actually worked, Astra Zeneca, Glazo, or Smith Klyne, would be marketing it all over the world!
    Keep up the good work and stick to your guns – great to see your responses to people with a clear ulterior motive – treating prostatic carcinoma with a low powered cattle prod? Give me a break.
    Jake

      rationalbrain responded:
      May 16, 2013 at 6:08 pm

      Thanks and well said Jake.
      Good to see someone out there managing to keep their feet planted in reality.

        zeca said:
        September 20, 2014 at 10:50 am

        finally someone rational, besides RB :)
        i’ll continue reading.
        by the way, great blog and great critical thinking.

    Vincent said:
    May 16, 2013 at 6:10 pm

    lol

      rationalbrain responded:
      May 16, 2013 at 6:50 pm

      Oh dear, the scenar community is wheeling out the big guns. What’s next.. ‘oh yeah?’.
      Vincent, that’s a response worthy of a 12 y.o. girl.

        Vincent said:
        May 16, 2013 at 6:55 pm

        I know. It’s all I thought you might understand. It certainly isn’t a rational response, but it’s heart felt. Sorry to interrupt ..I’ll let you and Jake carry on.

        rationalbrain responded:
        May 16, 2013 at 7:55 pm

        If only you could provide as much evidence as you do sarcasm, you might actually persuade someone you have a clue.
        But anything to avoid the evidence, right? That way you can just carry on bilking people.
        Over and out.

        Vincent said:
        May 16, 2013 at 10:12 pm

        RB, you wouldn’t know “evidence” if you fell over it. If it didn’t suit you you would deny it was there and blame your tripping on someone else.

        I honestly couldn’t even be bothered attempting to convince you. What would be the point?

        Had you started this blog rationally instead of blindly attacking the morals, motives and intelligence of your targets then maybe we could all have had a rational discussion.

        When you and your fellow un-thinkers start to assume you know my motives it starts to get scary. Reminds me of the irrational witch hunts of yesteryear. When you limit your ‘science’ to your own narrow definitions and make judgements on things you have not even researched you don’t make yourself look very smart. Nor do you encourage smart people to share what is valuable to them.

        I have some of the answers to questions you ask in this blog. (I also have more questions.) But to be frank, this is just not the forum for a scientific discussion. You have proven that. Yes this is your blog. Yes you have the final word. I appreciate and respect that.

        Yes, you can say again that “they” have no evidence. You can say that. I am certainly not going to share mine here.

        Over and out to you too …

        rationalbrain responded:
        May 17, 2013 at 6:38 am

        Why exactly wouldn’t the evidence suit me?
        And what is wrong with my ‘narrow’ definition of science? If you have a quibble with that, tell me how my definition is wrong. Science is a process, and that process relies on revealing reality through evidence, and then the community reviewing that evidence.
        To date, neither you nor your colleagues have provided the slightest evidence for scenar other than as a mild pain relief in some circumstances. Even that is pretty sketchy, but at least it’s plausible.
        So if you’re going to have a little cry about these nasty bloggers who just won’t take your word for it, just man up, and provide us your SECRET evidence. Evidence that we are clearly not good enough for you to share with us.
        And seriously, do you expect anyone to take your objectivity seriously when your domain name is ‘scenartherapist’?

    Coping: Fukushima Vs. Hiroshima - UrbanSurvival said:
    August 12, 2013 at 10:50 pm

    […] We have a reader report this morning that relates to a “Scenar” which some people swear by and others, like this site over here, label as a complete …. […]

    steve (@stv33) said:
    August 27, 2013 at 10:15 am
      rationalbrain responded:
      August 28, 2013 at 7:33 pm

      Well well, we have some more action on Scenar – in the form of a shiny new site boasting a string of ‘research’.
      Correct me if I’m wrong, but all but one are Russian, right? The other one is by the CEO of the company selling the stuff via this site, so we can rule that out.
      His claims are all the ‘soft’ ones…
      Reduction of Stress
      Improved Strength
      Increased Range of Motion
      Reduced Recovery Time
      Increased Energy/Feeling of well-being
      Increased Performance

      These are the sort of non-specific crap that anyone can claim. Worthless.
      All the rest – well I’ve written about the russian connection before.
      Why is this stuff researched only in Russia?
      Why are all these papers in virtually the same format, with very little referencing, apparently not peer reviewed, not in any known journal etc etc?
      As I’ve said before, I don’t trust them as a source for those reasons.
      If Chris Mortensen or any other purveyor of Scenar wanted to really sell the stuff, they would pay a few bucks for some decent trials to be carried out at a university here (or anywhere for that matter).
      Why don’t they do that?
      I’m betting is because they won’t like the answer.
      As I’ve said before ad nauseam, I’ll stipulate that scenar MAY provide some temporary local pain relief.
      But as for curing diseases, such as diabetes (one of the many claims), I still call bullshit.

    steve (@stv33) said:
    August 29, 2013 at 5:18 pm

    To quote (you) your site

    “The whole point of this blog is to encourage conversation, not simply be a one-way rant …..”

    Just out of curiosity with whom i have the privilege to to do so?

    Could I guess?….Victor Herbert or Stephen Barrett

    Am I right?

      rationalbrain responded:
      August 29, 2013 at 5:36 pm

      Steve
      What is the point of the quote? Perhaps you think I was shutting down conversation. I wasn’t.
      I guess I wasn’t explicit enough in my comments – I need decent evidence that scenar can cure disease.
      That’s all I ask. Published, peer reviewed evidence. That would make an interesting conversation, and is the only thing that will change my mind about scenar. Not testimonials from uncle frank, not plain documents churned out by Russian-sounding guys, and certainly not urging by a company trying to make a quick buck.
      As for my name, don’t know those guys, but I like them already.
      If you look hard enough, my name is in the blog, but you can call me rb. ;)

    steve (@stv33) said:
    August 30, 2013 at 12:21 am

    Well, rb, allow me to look at the SCENAR issue and your opinion from a deferent ankle and it may offer in a parallel way the kind of evidence you would use as the foundation for acceptance or no acceptance.

    SCENAR “developers, practitioners and researchers” claim that SCENAR can treat diseases including Diabetes (you have mentioned this health issue in some of your posts as an example).
    However, what is available as evidence is not good enough for you, with an exception (perhaps) of localized pain relief. You are obviously looking for rock hard, , science based evidence that SCENAR devices warrant their claims.

    Now, if I may, Acetaminophen (FDA approved), is used for the temporary relief of aches and pains, associated with MANY conditions and (Its exact mechanism of action is not known) for more than 20 years.

    Along with its “desired effects”, acetaminophen may cause some severe unwanted effects. Some are rare but never the less real, including;

    • Bloody or black, tarry stools
    • bloody or cloudy urine
    • fever with or without chills (not present before treatment and not caused by the condition being treated)
    • pain in the lower back and/or side (severe and/or sharp)
    • pinpoint red spots on the skin
    • skin rash, hives, or itching
    • sore throat (not present before treatment and not caused by the condition being treated)
    • sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
    • sudden decrease in the amount of urine
    • unusual bleeding or bruising
    • unusual tiredness or weakness
    • yellow eyes or skin

    http://www.drugs.com/sfx/acetaminophen-side-effects.html

    • Acute Liver Failure •
    • Hepatitis •
    • Hepatitis caused by Drugs
    • Inflammation of Skin caused by an Allergy
    • Giant Hives
    • Decreased Blood Platelets
    • Deficiency of Granulocytes a Type of White Blood Cell
    • Decreased White Blood Cells
    • Decreased Neutrophils a Type of White Blood Cell
    • Discolored Spots and Small Elevations of the Skin
    • Hives
    http://www.webmd.com/drugs/drug-362 acetaminophen+oral.aspx?drugid=362&drugname=acetaminophen+oral&pagenumber=

    Why would you take exception to a treatment that meets your requirements for acceptance when,
    ….acetaminophen-related liver problems, cause 450 deaths, 56000 emergency-room visits a year and 26000 hospitalizations in USA alone.

    While the experts agree that a daily dose of 7,000 mg can cause life-threatening liver damage in an adult, at the same time, about 10% of the acetaminophen-related deaths took place at levels between 2,000 mg and 4,000 mg.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203577304574272292331942618.html

    Perhaps Russians were involved in providing the safety and benefits regarding Acetaminophen….?

    Also find below some references if interested on the issue.

    Eriksson LS, Broome U, Kalin M, Lindholm M. Hepatotoxicity due to repeated intake of low doses of paracetamol. J Intern Med. 1992 May;231(5):567-70.
    Ostapowicz G, Fontana RJ, Schiodt FV, et al. Results of a prospective study of acute liver failure at 17 tertiary care centres in the United States. Ann Intern Med. 2002 Dec 17;137(12):947-54.
    Larson AM, Polson JS, Fontana RJ, et al. Acetaminophen-induced acute liver failure: results of a United States multicenter, prospective study. Hepatology. 2005;42(6):1364-72.
    Moling O, Cairon E, Rimenti G, et al. Severe hepatotoxicity after therapeutic doses of acetaminophen. Clin Ther. 2006 May;28(5):755-60.

      rationalbrain responded:
      August 30, 2013 at 8:32 am

      Your first two paras are spot on.
      But choosing a medication with side-effects to make your point is, well, pointless.
      ALL real medicines have side-effects.
      It’s a matter of balance of risk – one can take too much aspirin too, or any other medication.
      I don’t know of the example you’ve given – but it could well be a life-saving anti-cancer treatment, in which case some side effects may be tolerable. On the other hand, it may be a baby cough medication, in which case it’s good that we know of the side effects!
      That’s exactly why proper trials are mandatory – so we know how much to take, and what the effects will be.
      That’s what happens with real therapies.
      It’s not what has happened with scenar to date.

    steve (@stv33) said:
    August 30, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    Well rb,

    by saying, “But choosing a medication with side-effects to make your point is, well, pointless.” In that case, I feel that you should point me to a medication, after proper trials, without side effects. To my knowledge each medication offered for the treatment of a particular condition it could create a plethora of new ones and, many times, some worse than the one suppose to treat. Take a look yourself. However, In the case of SCENAR, so far, it provides localized pain relief (we both agree) and no evidence of side effects, (at least that anyone has reported of) other ways this will be front page news.

    On a second point, ” … it could well be a life-saving anti-cancer treatment,” This is the area that things are getting even worse with evidence and trials. Cancer patients after months or years of treatment are hardly shining beacons of health, are they?. Those who promote such treatments, for the last 50-60 years, after proper trials, intentionally misinform the people who place so much trust into them. In addition, these same people, the idea of taking responsibility for their actions is considered abhorrent. The part of the world I live treatment for cancer cost approximately $70000 per year/patient. I’m a little suspicious personality and, I can not help thinking of fishy evidence based science here. Oh! by the way, I vote with my hands and feet for emergency medicine and science.

    Furthermore, to your comments, “…That’s what happens with real therapies.” Well, “real therapies”… my donkey ears. I would call this Delusional Propaganda. If there is anything past or present, outside the status quo, that looks remotely promising, it faces the “stonewall” treatment. Would you like to know why? BIGpharma wants customers NOT cures. Therefore, this kind of multi billion dollar evidence based science manufacture their own kind of ‘truth’.

    You know what? Einstein had it right when he said: “Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.”

    But wait a minute. The medical scientific establishment would never do anything to harm, right?

    So… WE MUST always be “suspicious of those outside the establishment.

    Regards

    Steve

      rationalbrain responded:
      August 30, 2013 at 5:09 pm

      Steve
      Re your first para, I agree. There are no medications without side-effects. Not sure what your point is. But I disagree that scenar absolutely provides localised pain relief – i have said that I accept that it may, on the basis that it’s plausible. Again, I’ve never seen any decent testing of this. And it does have a side-effect – it makes your pocket lighter. So what is the difference between ‘Big Pharma’ and big scenar then? They’re both falling over each other to sell you stuff.
      Re second para – I’m not going to argue with you about cancer treatment. There are countless examples of intervention which has reduced suffering and extended life. Some cancers which were untreatable can now be managed – this is public knowledge and not up for debate.
      Then in your third para you descend in the big conspiracy, which I simply don’t buy. The more successful a treatment, the more they will sell. If a medication kills people, or has nasty side effects, people will stop buying, and docs will stop prescribing. Your premise is just flawed, sorry. But it’s an easy cop-out to blame big companies.
      And I object to you quote-mining Einstein. Where is the blind belief? Surely accepting scenar without adquate (or any) testing is blind belief????
      Sure, testing by big pharma can be compromised in some cases, or even fraudulent, but tends to be the exception. At least attempts are made to do it, so that decades down the track we don’t end up with another thalidomide.
      Don’t forget, big pharma is also responsible for homeopathy – and I’m also suspicious of that.
      So it’s easy to label someone as ‘establishment’, but it’s inaccurate in this case. Establishment or not, you must test the therapy before using or recommending. Simple.
      Cheers.
      rb.

    Sooty said:
    September 6, 2013 at 9:10 pm

    The writer of this blog sounds like a bit of an Idiot. The body is first and foremost bio-electric and so there is every reason to expect a varied frequency, mark space ratio..amplitude et al to work like magic. Have no idea if Scenar works…but did have a free session and results were immediate for me.

    Think the blogger must have studied too much reductionist sudo science

      rationalbrain responded:
      September 6, 2013 at 9:49 pm

      I sound a bit like an idiot?
      Do you even understand any of the words you have said? ‘Varied frequency, mark space ratio… amplitude’.
      Truly, I pissed myself laughing.
      You really have no idea. Tell me what any of those words mean. I dare you.
      And ‘sudo’? I think you mean ‘pseudo’.

      If you’re going to offer something meaningful, at least use a fucking dictionary for once in your life.
      Otherwise, stay out of adult conversations.

      PS If the body is first and foremost bio-electric, why can we walk around under powerlines without any effects? Why don’t we just get more energy when we stick our fingers in a wall socket? Every reason to expect it, right?

      rationalbrain responded:
      September 6, 2013 at 9:53 pm

      I have already agreed that there MAY be some pain relief.
      It’s the cure of diseases for which there is NO evidence.
      Even this is trivial. No better than a little analgaesic effect. But then I would expect this bollocks from a country that has homeopathic hospitals.
      How gullible are you lot?
      And if you’re going to offer studies, find me some from someone who is not making money out of selling the device in the first place.

    Helen said:
    October 14, 2013 at 8:11 pm

    Hi, thanks for your blog.

    There seems to be a perennial confusion in the discussion between an individual’s experience, or even a group of individuals experiences = anecdotal evidence, and actual evidence based on solid, repeatable, research.

    Someone’s experience is always important, but can’t be extrapolated as a whole. It is in the realm of an observation, several observations may lead to a testable proposition (hypothesis). This becomes the basis of a research question that can be tested.

    The results of research questions explored by established research principles provide the best evidence available, even though the process can be flawed, and at times corrupted. If the research follows established research methods it can be done again by others. For those concerned about this method, many a fraudulent scientific research paper has been exposed through this process.

    Hoping this helps shed some light on this discussion

    Malcolm said:
    December 20, 2013 at 8:36 am

    I read your post just now – I would challenge you to give a Scenar a go if you injure yourself -it is the best non pharmaceutical pain relief I have come across.
    I first came across this technology about 5 years ago when I was appalled to find out my mum had forked out about 500 quid for what looked like an old school mobile phone with 4 buttons on it. I was very sceptical as having tried to research exactly what or how this device worked I found the literature available in English was pretty rubbish non scientific “healing crystal” “energy line” type language that you would expect from a pseudo-scientific alternative therapy technique.
    Anyway my mum seemed happy that it worked for treating her chronic pain so I assumed that it was generating some sort of plecebo effect or similar results to a TENS machine if nothing else.
    This was the opinion I held until I walked into a low peice of scaffolding tube when on a rig and really jarred my neck and shoulder. I could not turn my head at all to the left and was popping codeine, ibuprofen and paracetamol like sweets to try and get some pain releif and movement back.
    My mum offered me a shot of the scenar when I went round to visit -so I gave it a try out of desperation.
    I used it around my left shoulder and neck area initially. The thing felt like getting stung by nettles or jellyfish and was pretty uncomfortable it also physically stuck to any areas where there was more pain which I have no idea how this happens as it only has two concentric metal rings that contact your skin. I did 1 treatment for about 2-3minutes and upon finishing I could not believe the results. I didn’t have any noticeable pain and (I think because of the lack of pain) was able to turn my head to the left without moving like Frankenstein.

    I was very impressed and borrowed it for a week and was pretty much pain free after using for a week.

    A few months later I borrowed it again from my mum to take on a snowboarding holiday -wrecked myself a good few times but was able to board the next day without seizing up or muscle pain.

    Eventually after a lot of grumbling from my mum from me and other family members nicking her scanar I bought one myself.
    I’m still not sure the of exactly the science of how it works – but it bloody well does!

      rationalbrain responded:
      December 20, 2013 at 3:33 pm

      Malcolm,
      If you’ve read any of the long trail of correspondence on this topic you’ll see I’ve accepted as plausible that the device offers some minor pain relief, so I won’t argue the toss on that one.
      But what is still missing is any evidence (as opposed to anecdotes such as yours) of any clinical benefit from the device, as claimed by many practitioners and in many websites.
      I still find it implausible that any actual muscle/tissue healing takes place (again, no testing), and totally bogus that any illnesses (such as diabetes) is cured. And yet that is what is claimed.
      If minor pain relief was the only claim, I wouldn’t have an issue, but clearly the claims are far more grandiose – hence I call bullshit, and challenge those mouthing off about it to do some real testing – you know, involving a bit of science, as opposed to marketing and spin.
      Hope you’re enjoying the cricket.
      Cheers
      rb

    Joss said:
    February 2, 2014 at 3:43 pm

    Hi Rationalbrain. You have a lovely rational brain that I am sure will respect sound logic.
    I agree with you that:
    a) There is no sound evidence I am aware of that suggests Scenar can cure diseases such as diabetes (thought as an aside diabetes is often quite reversible with the right lifestyle). And so for Scenar manufactures/distributors/therapists to make such claims is ridiculous & misleading. Having said that, there is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater because in my experience Scenars are very useful tools for treating musculoskeletal complaints and injuries.
    b) I also agree that placebo controlled double blind studies are one of the top sources of evidence for any therapy. But you might be surprised to know how many medical therapies currently used by doctors are actually not evidence based and not proven with such trials. An excuse for Scenar? No, just reality. I look forward to more clinical trials being done with Scenar but it does take time & money for the evidence to accumulate for new therapies. Again this is not a suggestion of conspiracy or an excuse – it just a fact that clinical trials cost a lot of money and take a lot of time! Until that evidence comes out it is not going to stop me using Scenars where i see an obvious benefit. It is way too much to call the whole technology a scam.
    Where I disagree with your statements is that anecdotal evidence is worthless. Yes, it is a lower level evidence then clinical trails but it can still be useful particularly when there is a clear pattern to numerous anecdotes and also when the therapy helps with long term chronic problems which had previously not responded to other treatment options. Journals & Doctors often study case studies ie anecdotes! because of their value. As an example consider aloe-vera as a treatment for mild sunburn. It is unlikely this has been proven clinically effective in placebo controlled double blinded studies, but ppl know it works anecdotally. I personally do not need to wait for scientific justification before I am willing to give aloe-vera a go. I will appraise it on its own merits for now.
    On the face of it Scenar does sound like a ridiculous star-trek fantasy but once you have witnissed first hand what it can do, it is hard to deny its benefit. For example I have seen large fresh bruises clear before my eyes, cuts that should require stitches stop rapidly stop bleeding, scoliotic backs straighten, surgical cars reduced by half – all in a few minutes of treatment. Also I have seen a pattern of chronic problems 10, or 20 years old respond very well to Scenar. Often these ppl had previously tried many other therapies (mainstream & complementary) without success. If they were so gullible or “placebo responsive” then they might have fallen for anything else along the way. These are just a few examples.
    As for a plausable biological mechanism of action, it is no secret. It wld take a long time to explain it in detail & unfortunately complex things are not summarised easily. Suffice to say that reflex-biofeedback using transcutaneous electrical stimulation makes physiologically sense – provided you understand physiology. For example: Electrical stimulation has been used in modern orthopedics for decades now to promote the healing of very troublesome non-union bone fractures. The stimulus has to be at a specific frequency or it won’t work, this is not new age stuff just because frequency’s are mentioned! The full role of frequency & free electrons in health & disease are only just being elucidated. But a classic book on the subject written for the layman is Dr Becker’s “The body Electric”. And by the way, yes I do know what frequency is.
    Also I noticed you have been very quite aggressive & insulting, dissing ppl about spelling etc – so I would appreciate it if you just ‘play the ball, not the man’ as you yourself suggested above. Questioning ppls motivations as therapists as if they r just trying to con clients out of their money is not fair. Generally ppl get into this industry because they care deeply for others well-being & there are plenty of easier ways to earn money than running a clinic – trust me! By accusing so many ppl above of being motivated by greed perhaps reflects more about yourself then them?
    I hope you are searching for the truth rather than just trying to prove your point of view.
    I think its strange how some ppl get all riled up about a harmless therapy (harmless at worst) but they are not moved to blog when Vioxx or some other well studied, approved drug kills 30,000 ppl before it is recalled. Oh wait that’s mainstream, so that’s ok…
    Sincerely Joss
    PS I know I am biased by my experiences but actually I am only concerned with the truth and what works.

      rationalbrain responded:
      February 2, 2014 at 4:03 pm

      Thanks for your comment.
      It’s been a while between comments, so bear with me if I repeat myself.
      Strange that you would ask me to play the ball, then go on to deploy a healthy serve of sarcasm regarding Vioxx. I’ll address that one anyway. I don’t need to talk about it because we already know about the issue. And ‘mainstream’ is irrelevant – I don’t even know what that means. Vioxx was a clear case of commercialism taking precedence over science (and testing in particular). So it actually shoots down your own arguments regarding anecdotes – if you go on anecdotes alone, you might hear 1000 good stories, but the 1001st kills some poor sod. That’s why you need clinical testing.
      Granted, scenar is never going to kill anyone, but you don’t have to die to have harm done to you, as I’ve said many times before.
      I’m sorry, but your biological mechanism for scenar is still a secret, and I believe your claim that it would ‘take a long time to explain’, is just a way of avoiding the question. So don’t summarise. Hit us with the full details – I have university physics, maths and electronics – I’m sure I’ll be able to follow you. Unfortunately I don’t hold out any hope for a meaningful response from you on this, based on the jargon you’ve already provided: reflex-biofeedback? free electrons? Really? Do you realise that all electrons in a current are basically free? What do you mean by this? And again, you use the word ‘frequency’ (of which the plural is frequencies by the way) in an odd way. Yes, tissue responds differently to different frequencies. At 50Hz near powerlines, there is no response. At ultrasound, you get a pleasant massage. At ultraviolet frequencies, you get sunburn or worse. At GHz microwave frequencies you can be rendered sterile. But it’s all a question of intensity, which is never discussed.
      No, it’s quite clear to me, that all the scenar ‘techno-babble’ is just post-hoc rationalisation of your various anecdotes, designed to lend some legitimacy where none has been earned. There is definitely no science involved, other than words. For it to be scientific, it needs to be subjected to the scientific method (i.e. proper testing), not just described with words borrowed from science. If you haven’t done proper testing, you can’t possibly know anything approximating the ‘truth’ when it comes to scenar.

      Todd said:
      February 3, 2014 at 6:47 am

      The only ones that are rational on this blog are those that try to keep people’s minds open by presenting both sides of their experiences with Scenar. To the OP this blog is less about Scenar and more about their blind allegiance to the medical establishment and “approved” studies which is really nothing more than a personal opinion. When mistakes are made like Vioxx, it is simply disavowed with an “oops”, that was a case of money over science. If that’s true how is anyone supposed to know which studies have fallen prey to the same flaw? Is this the demise of the concept of even using double-blind studies at all? Because if they can’t be perfect and flawless, then aren’t they all subject to infallibility? God forbid! Double-blinds should be perfect, right? Perfectly proven and that’s why we follow them and nothing else, or so “RationalBrain” would have people believe. That fact is that studies are subject to error as well.

      The OP is so adamant about it that the term “mainstream” is not even acknowledged, because to him/her there is no mainstream, there is only right and wrong. Recognizing mainstream is as easy as pointing out a Hollywood film next to an Indie. But someone who supposedly has intellect can’t even do that. It’s that land of absolute or nothing at all for the OP. The perceived perfection perfection of science and studies rules their world and what they will forbid is any intrusion that would cause them to re-evaluate, making them completely closed minded and unable to accept any new knowledge.

      The fact is this is just a matter of opinion (scenar,studies,drugs vs energy medicine) and the OP is just here to say that their way is right and anyone who disagrees is wrong. If a study comes around that says differently they will just disregard it as invalid for some reason (if not the same reason the Vioxx study was invalid than some other reason) so that they can cling to their narrow view.

      BTW if you get a kidney stone don’t use SCENAR on it! It temporarily stops some pain then it comes back worse than before!

        rationalbrain responded:
        February 3, 2014 at 9:57 am

        Oh boy, you’re an angry man aren’t you Todd!
        Unfortunately that just makes your rants more illogical than ever.
        Not that it will affect your blind allegiance to scenar one little bit, but I never said Vioxx was a case of money over science. On the contrary, science showed why it should be pulled – let me get more specific – those pesky men/women in white coats actually ANALYSED the DATA and found that it did way more harm than good. In fact I’ll bet at some point there was a Todd-clone going around telling people how fantastic Vioxx was, and when asked for test data told people to have faith, it will save their lives.
        So let’s get this clear – insufficient proof/testing got us into the mess, and extensive analysis showed it up for what it was – ineffective and dangerous.
        So, now you will continue to tell me that scenar doesn’t need proof/testing right, because I’m irrational!
        I also confirm that ‘mainstream’ is meaningless – much like ‘alternative medicine’. It’s a bullshit term designed for emotional impact, when we should be focusing on what is proven to work, and what has not been proven to work. You focus on ‘mainstream’, ‘closed minds’, ‘matter of opinion’, and I’ll focus on what works and what doesn’t, that way you can continue to troll sites pushing your vacuous views.
        And I never said testing was perfect and flawless – that’s just your attempt to denigrate rather than contribute sensible discussion. Science is not flawless, but it’s the best we have. The alternative is witch-doctors like yourself chanting about energy lines and casting spells.
        You choose to believe I am narrow minded, but I repeat: I currently think scenar is bogus for anything other than mild pain relief. This is my provisional belief, supported by your final sentence re kidney stones. BUT if I were presented with evidence to the contrary, I would modify that belief – in fact I would be stupid not to, wouldn’t I?
        So instead of all your invective and sarcasm, why not present the evidence that will change that belief? Again, I’m betting you can’t.
        Why don’t you swap the emotional grandstanding for some real information and enlighten us all?

      Todd said:
      February 4, 2014 at 6:33 am

      The cop all is your attempt at logic rational brain. You think you’re the only one who appreciates what science can do? What we dispute is the PROCESS not the SCIENCE.

      You allege that Scenar is invalid because of a lack of accepted clinical studies, when those same process of accepting clinical studies have failed in cases like Vioxx. You don’t know the first thing about the science behind SCenar and I may know even less but what matters is whether someone should try something or not. You claim that that decision should be based on accepted, Accredited clinical studies–but you even admit that that process is fallible. So why should anyone trust it exclusively?

      Is it so wrong to try a noninvasive device that runs on a 9 V battery that others have used with no problems. Are there always variables that could cause some danger? Yes, but there are no absolutes. You’re as likely get hurt bye, Or perhaps more likely, a pharmaceutical then you would a Scenar. That’s all we’ve been trying to enlighten you on. Not that science and clinical trials are no good! They’re amazing. But you are ignorant for accepting some sources of science while rejecting others, simply because it’s not promoted by the channels your faith is in –even though it has proven to be less-than-perfect. You are either blind, Infinitely stubborn, Or you have an agenda. Either way your point of view is completely full of holes so to speak. If you’re approved channels fail, you simply go back and say well we made a mistake- marketing got in the way or the rush to get a new drug got in the way. But that doesn’t do anyone any good. How does that help the people who died? Yet you charge on as if accepting the popularized and federally approved medications is the only way. If it is clearly some people Will pay with their lives.

        rationalbrain responded:
        February 4, 2014 at 3:40 pm

        Mate, you’re starting to get incoherent, really.
        Let me simplify it for you before your head explodes:
        1. Because clinical trials have failed or been subverted before, they are still our best tool, and I still want this to be a starting point. Otherwise what do I rely on? Advice from tennis pros?
        2. Scenar won’t cause any danger – I’ve never said that it would. The only danger is the gullible being fleeced as your assure them you can cure their diabetes. Or maybe you could drop it on your toe – that could hurt.
        3. You are correct – I don’t know the first thing about the science of scenar. But neither do you. I do know that a 9V battery will have fuck all effect on your body’s electrochemical pathways, although you could give your tongue a bit of a burn. And I do know that all the explanations you and others have tried to give on the mechanism of action are so lame that it’s laughable. See my discussion with Joss, where he tries to tell me scenar machines are sending information to the body like a radio. Any explanation of the mechanism of action that I’ve seen is so contrived as to be meaningless. And if not backed up with any practical measurements, totally pointless.

        So don’t get started on the paranoia of hidden agendas.
        I simply don’t believe that a 9V device like this will work based on my understanding of the natural world, have heard no reasonable explanation of how it could work, and have seen no decent testing of it with appropriate controls.
        Is that so hard to understand? Is that so unreasonable?
        Or perhaps I’m part of the New World Order which is attempting to control the world’s banking system, and suppress all technological advances – except for all of medicine, nuclear physics, astronomy, medicine, agriculture – well, just scenar really. Oops, I’ve said too much.

        Since your ideological and philosophical musings are starting to get really boring, if you choose to write in again, I’ll be looking for one or both of the following in order to publish:
        a. Decent mechanism of action
        b. Details of empirical studies

        (PS -I’ve seen all the Russian websites – they don’t cut it. Perhaps something from a Physiotherapists conference or study, or Occupational Therapists, or somewhere where your device could actually do something useful.)

    Todd said:
    February 3, 2014 at 11:25 am

    Ahh, so you;re saying that the ORIGINAL STUDIES that got Vioxx cleared were insufficient now, and that PROPER science proved how harmful it was. This is just typical. Ignoring that the process to get cleared the FDA is subject to flaws is the whole point. Nobody, including myself is denying the importance of studies. What is obvious is how you pick and choose which studies are good or bad based upon your own needs to prove your point. You want people to trust the “accredited” studies wholeheartedly because you might figure it out after with proper science? After the harm is done? And then say that the first studies were bad? Sorry, that’s not how it works.

    There are always well conducted studies, poorly conducted studies, well conducted studies that account for nearly all the main variables, and even well conducted studies that DON’T account for all the variables. The point is there is error EVEN in the world of exact science. Your position of absoluteness is one that is taken from an armchair quarterback position. You add nothing to the discussion except a whining for things to be proven to you.

    No I’m not angry. And my mood has no bearing. The situation is simple. Studies help, they don’t cure illness, same as Scenar. I’m not loyal to either. I’m loyal to the process of sharing information and doing the best I can do to keep myself and those around me healthy. I don’t claim anything is a scam or a panacea. I won’t tell anyone that I possess that type of knowledge. I’m not you. I’m just a person expressing a simple philosophy I think we can all benefit from. That there is no absolute perfect scientific way of medicine. That is is an art that science is the driving force behind perfecting, yet will never be perfected. You sir, are a blowhard, which does not make me angry, just sad for you and those who listen you your drivel.

      rationalbrain responded:
      February 3, 2014 at 11:41 am

      YES that’s exactly what I’m saying: Flaws and fraud are eventually rooted out by the process. It doesn’t mean we throw out the process, which is what it seems you want to do. So please put your moral indignation away.
      How is wanting evidence ‘absoluteness’? Your ideology I’m afraid has twisted your perspective on this.
      I get it: you want your personal beliefs to be accepted by others without question. But I’m the bad guy because I won’t roll over.
      If you’re so into sharing information, then share with us the data, or else give the rhetoric a rest.
      FYI, please don’t expect all of your writings to be published from here on in – your contributions are starting to look to much like trolling. Needless to say you’ll be screaming ‘censorship’, and that this is what the ‘system’ does to people who know the ‘real truth’, etc etc.
      On the other hand, if you have some real information to share, then I welcome your input.
      rb.

    Joss said:
    February 3, 2014 at 2:15 pm

    i would like to say that Vioxx was a relevant example because it passed all of these tests you want for scenar and yet it killed so many ppl before it was realised. another example is Lipitor (wrlds most popular anti-chiolesterol statin) which according to their own research helps 1 out of 100 ppl taking it. Let me tell you if scenar was only helping 1 in 100 ppl tit would be thrown in the bin.
    Free elctrons is a convenient way of talking about current and voltage simutaneously in a biological context it is a commen term in biochemistry and not mumbojumbo. The same goes for reflex-biofeedback. Biofeedback has been around for ages as a menas to control autonomic process’s in the body consciously. Relfex biofeedback refers to regulation that does not require the conscious mind but instead uses physiological reflex’s (reflex’s being subconscious. I think the main problem here is that rationalbrain does not have the relevant knowledge to be discussing this easily. Im not trying to be rude but I dont think you knwo much about physiology or biochemistry or biofeedback or medicine or physical therapy. Its just too hard to bring you up to speed and define every word I use so I dont get accused of using jargon! To explain the mechanisms of action of Scenar would absolutely take forever. And by the way scenar mechanism of action is notbackwards reasoning I am just describing how it was designed. This technology tooks a lot of time money and research to develop. Thankfully a lot of funding was thrown around during the Soviet space race

      rationalbrain responded:
      February 3, 2014 at 2:45 pm

      Yes, well it sounds like a cop-out to me.
      Telling me I wouldn’t understand is pathetic. This makes it even more clear that the mechanism of action is pure fantasy.
      So instead of hiding behind complexity, let’s have it – or at least point to where is has been properly documented and verified.
      Also tell me about free electrons in the body. What atoms have they come from, and where to they end up? Or are you referring to the creation of ions which are the main charge transport in cellular activity?
      And spare me your condescending tone.

        Joss said:
        February 3, 2014 at 4:48 pm

        Okay I am sorry if that sounded condescending, wasn’t intended that way.
        Here is a specific example to illustate how it works..
        It is to with scenar’s remarkable ability to restore normal muscle tone.
        This a pertinent example because estimates are that “tight” muscles are responsable for the vast majority of pain. Most physical therapists (physio’s etc) understand this from experience.
        Now, two of the main things muscles need to stay “relaxed” are energy & nerve supply.
        If either of these are lost, the muscle will tend to tighten up or go “spastic” (think rigor-mortis, cerebral palsy, nerve impingement etc) Excessively tight muscle stiffen & squash a lot of things and generally causes a lot of trouble in the body.
        But what happens when a muscle is tight, is that is blocks its own blood (therefore energy production)) and nerve supply and to it becomes a vicous cycle ie the more tight it gets, the more it blocks nerve and blood supply which makes it tighter and so on. This is an examlpe of a repetitive pathological condition and yes it has been measured and documented scientifically.
        One can take anti-spasmodics etc but the effect will usually be temporary.What scenar does is send in “neuro-like” signals to restore normal muscle tone, this restores normal blood & nerve supply thereby breaking the repetitive cycle. The frequency of nervous signals is so important to muscles that it actually determines wether the muscle will be fast twitch or slow twitch fibre
        predominant. Nerve supply is also vital to most other organs & they will shrivel up and die if their nerve supply is cut.
        Nerves go into a muscle at the site of the “motor end plate” which is commonly the site of trigger points or contractured parts of the muscle. This often causes a measureable increase in skin resistance above the site and this is why scenar will tend to “stick” like a magnet to these areas particularly.
        How does relfex biofeedback work?
        The device sends in a signal and measures the bodies response, if the bodies response is towards electro-physiological normal (this is measurable in a large variety of different parameters) then that signal will be selected by the machine and used again. However the machine and the body are in a constant dialogue at a rate of 100 times per second and the signal is constantly adjusted based on its feedback from the body and the forecasting of the device’s programming. The mathmatics & electronics of the interaction are where it gets highly complicated but it is all based on the latest advancements in neuro-physiology – a highly emerging field.
        Regarding the question of intensity, the bodies communicative signals are very minute currents and so therefore to mimic that the signals of the device are too. The low intensity of the signals does not mean they are not important but it does mean they have been very difficult to study without highly sensitive technology (ECG’s being one of the first types of electrical dignostics). The scenar signal is a low intensity/high information signal which carries information coded in frequency much as a radio bandwith carries the signal of music to your radio. Simple physics and science, not sci-fi.
        I’d be really fascinated if you can pick holes in this explanation

        rationalbrain responded:
        February 4, 2014 at 3:20 pm

        Joss, while I appreciate your attempt to elucidate the subject a bit, unlike other correspondents on this topic, it’s still not very satisfying, and here’s the reason.
        To establish the veracity of some proposition, I like to refer to Bayesian probability – see another article called ‘The Bayesian Approach for dummies’. Using this approach, we estimate the likelihood of some proposition being true by assessing two criteria – 1. is there a reasonable prior probability that it is true, and 2. do we have empirical results which demonstrate a significant effect or signal.

        Your explanation should address no.1 of these. Does this explanation give me cause to have any more confidence in your claims (especially given the lack of any empirical data)?
        Well, you’ve written some nice text, none of it persuasive I’m afraid. Anyone can put together a string of impressive words, but it’s still techno-babble. Why am I so uncharitable? Let’s start with a sentence near the end: “The scenar signal is a low intensity/high information signal which carries information coded in frequency much as a radio bandwidth carries the signal of music to your radio”.
        Apart from the fact that a phrase like ‘coded in frequency’ is nonsense to someone trained in the field, I’m extremely dubious about this claim. So you’re saying the device modulates a signal, and your body demodulates it to extract information? OK, so what is the form of modulation? Is it amplitude or frequency modulation, and if the latter, is pulse code modulation, or perhaps frequency division modulation? And what is the nature of this information? If it’s there we should be able to see it on an oscilloscope – where are the screen shots. Also, modulation of this type is analog – didn’t you say it was all digital? In which case, where do the muscles store the bits and bytes?
        You see where I’m going with this? Your explanation just defies common sense, and is clearly made up to sound impressive.
        Perhaps you’ve been fed some crap by the russian websites and you’ve thought is sounds impressive so it must be right. No, to anyone who knows anything about this technology, your analogy to a radio is yet another desperate attempt by a bogus therapy trying to grasp an analogy with existing technology in order to get some reflected credibility.
        So, bottom line, you can spout as much techno-babble as you wish and try to impress (and by the way, referring to ‘the latest advancements in neuro-physiology’ is simply NOT impressive), but ultimately people who understand the technology that you’re citing can see right through it.
        So, scenar, on this description, scores very low on prior probability, and of course we still have a big fat zero for empirical results.

        Todd said:
        February 5, 2014 at 5:16 am

        was my comment too poignant? Was that why you deleted it? You adhere to the process, not the science. The process is flawed, obviously. Tainted by money, human error, etc. You discount Scenar because it hasn’t been accepted by the “proper” channels, but Vioxx was, at least for a moment. No one is disputing science, what SCenar users dispute is the PROCESS of acceptance, FDA, etc. We use our common sense to think about whether it’s worth trying or not, knowing that if we trust the FDA, we may be taking the next VIOXX. Your logic is non-existant. You are either infinitely stubborn or you have an agenda. Either way, your brain is anything but rational.

        rationalbrain responded:
        February 5, 2014 at 9:59 am

        Er, as yet I haven’t deleted anything.
        Yes, my logic is non-existent. Totally illogical.
        If it were logical, I would have black-listed you long ago for avoiding the question of evidence. But I’m a soft touch.
        My common sense tells me to stop this conversation, and yet, I continue.
        I live in hope that you’ll provide something more than platitudes and conspiracy theories.
        But I guess that reflects the nature of alt med – selling hope rather than reality.
        Over and out.

    joss said:
    February 4, 2014 at 4:36 pm

    Yes you r getting closer now when u talk about signal modulation and yes it is v.visible on oscilloscope.
    I’m sorry of u can’t follow my simple analogies. They r my attempt to avoid jargon.
    I will give u an example of your ignorance in this field. You said electron movement is only ionic in the body. Yet all our energy is obtained through electron m ovement. Electrons r ripped off food by the way. Also the whole antioxident system of cells is based on electron donation, vitamin C being one of the most important electron donor’s. Free radical theories of disease & ageing r broadly accepted. Free radicals steal electrons. So much of the genome is involved with handling free electrons yet u talk as if free electrons was something I made up too.
    It is humble to admit that u do not have specialised knowledge in this field. But r u humble enough? I am sure u know more than me about computers & many other things but this is where I have specialised for a long time & I can assure u every assertion I have made are scientifically accurate.

    joss said:
    February 4, 2014 at 5:13 pm

    What we need is an impartial moderator who is an expert in a realvent field to judge this debate & the accuracy of the scientific assertions. If your so confident that you are right & Scenar is a useless or nearly useless scam then let’s each take a copy of this debate to a relevant professor in our respective cities. Then we will get them to impartially evaluate the debate & decide who has won and why when answering the question: Is Scenar a scam? Relevant professors would b anyone in the field of physiology, neuro-physiology or neuroscience. We can pay them $50 each eh? I agree not enough good data to approve clinically yet but let’s just see if the experts think the theory is sound or not.

      rationalbrain responded:
      February 4, 2014 at 5:39 pm

      All you’ve said, despite your continued condescending language is that there is electrical stuff happening in the body, and that scenar puts a tiny bit of electricity onto the skin. I’m trying to keep it simple for you, because you are clearly under some sort of delusion that what you’ve said has weight at all in this discussion.
      In your previous post you are dead wrong on a number of counts. Do you even read what you’ve written?
      “Electrons are ripped off food” Whaaa?
      “All our energy is obtained through electron movement” Overly simplistic. You have no idea about ions?
      Yes, we all know about free radicals, but what has that to do with scenar? You have made absolutely no connection between electrical stuff happening in the body, and the tiny (probably simple sine) wave applied to the skin.
      Please, find yourself a professor and ask him how your pissy device causes changes to free radicals or in any way does anything more than provide mild heating at a superficial level. Then ask him how he knows, and what empirical evidence he has for what he is saying.

      In closing, I have to laugh at the need for an ‘impartial moderator’ as a judge of some sort.
      I am not the one making wild claims about a miraculous device that fixes all sorts of illnessess – YOU ARE!
      I don’t believe it works. I believe it’s another money-making ‘therapy’ like homeopathy and acupuncture which have no efficacy of which to speak. If it does work, then it’s up to you to prove it. Simple.
      If you can’t prove it, then you have a problem.

    joss said:
    February 4, 2014 at 6:24 pm

    Your prior probability criteria is a bit limiting to innovation but it is fairly well established with TENS machines. TENS machines interfere with electrical pain transmission. It is a natural progression to suggest that if the bodies electrical signals can be interfered with than other signals may be modulated using biofeedback. This is natural scientific progression & innovation which u seem so resistant too. TENS machines are still used in hospital’s during labour. Physio’s have been using TENS & ultrasound 4 ages when in fact both have very little ability to promote healing. Infact the evidence that ultrasound does anything to speed healing is very poor. Anyway back to the point. Scenar is an evolution of TENS, and Cosmodic technology from Scenar. The biological mechanisms of TENS are well established but they are very primitive now & have been superseded but the scientific progression is rational & research based. It is established that nervous signals r vital 4 health, that they r electrical in nature, that we can use electronics to “listen” to these signals and to mimic them.

    joss said:
    February 4, 2014 at 6:32 pm

    If u don’t understand that electrons r ripped off food & r used to make energy then u know nothing about biochemistry. I was trying to simplify because u don’t like big words but if u want proof just look up the Krebs cycle, oxidative phosphorylation and especially ATPsynthase enzyme which makes cellular energy like a water wheel in an electron stream. This is molecular biology & exactly how your body works

    joss said:
    February 4, 2014 at 6:38 pm

    What does this have to do with Scenar? I’m glad u asked. Scenar is an electron donor. This means that it is recharging cells back to a healthy -70mV and providing an antioxidant effect. For the cells to be able to absorb and utilise the energy it has to come in at the right frequency. Good question tho

    joss said:
    February 4, 2014 at 7:11 pm

    If acupunture had no basis then why do so many top sports physio’s use dry needling now? The effects of putting a needle through a muscular trigger point (a knot basically) are dramatic and rapid. The muscle will twitch and then release it is amazing to watch/feel and the effects are undeniable. Acupuncturists invented this technique and many acupoints correspond to typical trigger point locations. So when you say that has no effect then you are wrong again

      rationalbrain responded:
      February 5, 2014 at 9:54 am

      Very deniable.
      Testing has shown time and again that acupuncture has no benefit beyond placebo.
      No such thing as acupoints.
      Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, end of story.

    joss said:
    February 5, 2014 at 11:42 am

    You have shown u don’t understand that oxygen is used to split electrons off food. If u do not know about something as simple as breathing how can u claim to have any scientific credability? And what hope is there 4 u to understand more complex & cutting edge phenomena?
    If u want evidence for dry-needling just PubMed it. You will see

      rationalbrain responded:
      February 5, 2014 at 12:02 pm

      No, we morons don’t understand your complex phenomena, so we rely on people to test for us and advise efficacy.
      Also pls forward your PubMed reference – I can’t find any support for it at all.
      In any case, as I’ve said countless times – it’s rather boring arguing about people’s various fantasies. Unless you can provide some reasonable objective evidence, instead of hot air, we can go no further.

    joss said:
    February 5, 2014 at 4:28 pm

    Okay so if some quality research is published in the near future that finds positive response to scenar then presumably u wld reconsider yr position? Btw its unscientific to say something definitely does not work when u have no evidence to support your claims

      rationalbrain responded:
      February 5, 2014 at 4:52 pm

      Of course. All I’ve ever asked for is evidence.
      The scientific method is all about provisional knowledge. All knowledge is provisional, but some is more provisional than other knowledge.
      My provisional belief is that scenar is of little value other than mild pain relief, based on:
      1. the absence of a plausible method of action (prior plausibility) and
      2. the absence of any decent empirical evidence.
      In arriving at my provisional belief, I discount individual testimony from individuals who have an obvious pecuniary interest in the subject and/or who are not qualified sufficiently to earn my trust. Good example: Oil company geologist saying that climate change is crap.
      Further, given the range claims made for scenar, I also demand a commensurate standard of proof.
      I don’t think I can put it any clearer or simpler than this, and re-iterate, if either of the conditions 1 & 2 above were addressed in some way (preferably both of course) then I would of course change my mind.
      Having said that, I will admit that my provisional belief is so strong that I’m betting that neither will be addressed.

      As a side note, unfortunately I think scenar has suffered from over-reach. If they had limited the claims to mild pain relief, then I would have no issues at all accepting a mechanism of action, and probably would not demand empirical testing, because the claim is somewhat modest.
      When the claims start to talk about diabetes, heart disease etc etc, and then is embellished with clearly fabricated technobabble, then the bullshit meter starts hitting the red zone. The claim then requires me to believe that a mild heating current at the skin level is somehow mediated by some fictitious energy channel in the body to affect the course of a serious disease in an internal organ. No matter how much you protest, no-one has been able to measure or demonstrate any such thing as a meridian, or energy lines or acupoints. End of story. That’s why scenar suffers from over-reach.

        Todd said:
        February 6, 2014 at 2:45 am

        I actually agree with RB on this one. Scenar, while useful for pain relief, I don’t believe is an answer for a medical condition with causes in the body that are not electronic in nature. I suppose there is a chance at Scenar are could reverse the condition rooted in an electronic imbalance for example living too close to high-powered energy lines which have proven to be carcinogens. but a lifetime of eating high cholesterol foods and thereby inducing high blood pressure or cardiovascular problems, is not going to be undone by an electrical signal. I firmly believe that the body needs to be cleansed
        to be healed. Even pharmaceutical drugs are not truly capable of healing the body of this condition, while they may circumvent the situation by thinning the blood or shutting down nerve receptors in some cases to be truly healed because of the problem must be removed. It is my most fundamental problem with Western medicine in that it often masks symptoms or shut down the body’s reaction to problems, but does not remove the cause of those problems.

        what Scenar I can actually do I cannot say and I do support clinical studies for it but the claims are one thing that I find a huge turnoff about it. even if a person here there has gotten relief from something as serious as heart disease from Scenar there is no proof that the next person that comes along will experience that relief. and while I agree and believe that electronic signals are not only within the body but greatly affect the body, I feel it is a poor method of medicine to try and keep the body healthy solely by manipulating the signals. if you have gallstones or lung cancer eating french fries and smoking cigarettes while using Scenar are is not the answer.

    Todd said:
    February 6, 2014 at 3:08 am

    btw, accupucture has been proven well enough to be accepted by most of the medical establishment. I’m not sure why you deny its efficacy as hocus-pocus or a placebo when so many people and doctors support it as well. Asking to be shown a Meridian is like saying show me God or won’t believe. Good luck with that one.

    once again I don’t feel like it is a replacement for eliminating the cause of disease, but it has proven to be exceptional pain relief and may do further good in terms of balancing the body or helping The immune system. but there’s plenty of evidence that it is not a placebo in terms of pain relief.

      rationalbrain responded:
      February 6, 2014 at 9:33 am

      Re meridians, that’s exactly the point. Show it to me, or I won’t believe.
      Here’s a nice little summary of the situation http://theconversation.com/acupuncture-research-the-path-least-scientific-10273.
      Much like parapsychology, decades of testing has failed to reveal anything more than a tiny effect. You’d think if it’s so wonderful that we’d have some decent evidence documented. Anyway, let’s not get started on that one!

    Joss said:
    February 6, 2014 at 5:04 pm

    lets see how your original quote stands up now
    “The most common devices are like a mobile phone, and give out a tiny tingle, which couldn’t possibly have any real effect on body tissue”

      rationalbrain responded:
      February 6, 2014 at 5:28 pm

      For other readers, Joss has provided a shit-load of references to back his case, which all sound suitably sciencey, and some of which I may peruse if I get bored.
      I haven’t published the post because I don’t particularly like the type of abuse also included in the post. Suffice to say Joss is feeling pretty confident at the moment.
      But it remains that for the ONE single example I have picked for scenar, that is curing diabetes, he/she concedes ‘the jury is out’.
      Well, I want know the mechanism of action for curing diabetes, because, if this claim is bogus, then how many others are?

      Only two simple criteria to fulfill Joss, then I’m converted.

      Regarding your sarcastic comment above, it is your own proponents that tell me the devices run on a 9V battery – it is these to which I refer. Of course there are other devices out there, like ultrasound machines, which I’ve used myself for muscle repair. We’re not talking about those – we are talking about the hand-held scenar which is being peddled. I want to know how you get any useful energy transferred out of a 9V battery (of capacity small enough to be in a hand-held device), through body tissue, and eventually addressing diabetes. If you keep dodging this your cause is lost.

    joss said:
    February 6, 2014 at 6:39 pm

    What I meant to say is why won’t u publish my previous post that’s unethical

      rationalbrain responded:
      February 6, 2014 at 10:49 pm

      You didn’t make claims about diabetes, but most of your Russian mates claim it. You need to defend it.
      And it’s my blog – if you’re spouting abuse, all bets are off.
      In any case, I publicly stated that I didn’t publish it – I didn’t just delete it.
      Or are you also an expert on blog ethics?

    joss said:
    February 6, 2014 at 6:40 pm

    The only other reader is Todd btw

      rationalbrain responded:
      February 6, 2014 at 10:52 pm

      Oh, you ARE an expert.
      How do you know how many subscribers there are to that article? FYI there are dozens, they just don’t care to interject on such an inane conversation.
      This one article gets at least 100 hits a day.
      That’s 100 time someone gets their eyes opened that little bit more!
      Go figure.

    Loriel said:
    March 16, 2014 at 9:05 am

    Who cares if it has been proven to work with clinical trials. If it helps people relieve pain through scientific means, placebo effect or “black magic” then it is worth it. Negativity and obvious disdain for those that don’t agree with oneself is far more harmful than a device that helps people for whatever reason.

      chris responded:
      March 16, 2014 at 2:47 pm

      You give far to much credit to the placebo effect. The claims made by these people, for example, that Scenar cures diabetes, are completely unproven, and also completely improbable.
      If that doesn’t bother you, by all means, donate your money to these guys.
      But don’t expect others to get sucked in because you don’t care about things being proven.
      Apathy can of course result in a stress-free life. Enjoy.

    Canada said:
    March 19, 2014 at 7:11 am

    Just one more New Age trick, this Scenar.

    Union Jack said:
    March 26, 2014 at 3:27 am

    Yep, SCENAR must be a scam. How do I know? Because I never tried it and I never will. In fact I’m going to the pharmacy right now to purchase some medicine that had clinical trials that I’m sure none of you could afford on your own so there. Chemical medicine is the only medicine and everything else is quackery.

      chris responded:
      March 26, 2014 at 8:18 am

      Oooh. Sarcasm. Very clever. Now let me try!
      Yep, SCENAR must work. It was invented in Russia. Everyone and his dog sells it. Some guy in California thinks it’s so good, you don’t need any evidence of efficacy – you just use it. How good is that?
      Nope, doesn’t work for me.
      Thanks for your valuable contribution. Perhaps next time, you could enlighten us with the evidence rather than wasting our time with your smart-arsed bullshit. If you have the misfortune of getting diabetes, I do hope you’ll use SCENAR to treat it, rather than that awful ‘chemical medicine’. Really.
      Just sayin’.

    Justin Gould said:
    April 4, 2014 at 4:51 am

    I don’t think you could be more wrong and I am the biggest skeptic. I have been on a downhill slide with tendinitis / tendinosis from taking Levaquin antibiotics and prednisone 6 months ago. Day by day it has been getting harder to walk and every step hurts. I could not sleep from the pain. It is so serious, I have been picking out scooters and canes for two weeks and adjusting my life accordingly. I am 41 years old and was very active and went to gym 4 times a week before this.

    Never having heard of Scenar or cold laser before, I went last night to a physical therapist who uses both. I LITERALLY walked in limping in pain and today I have NO PAIN in my right foot and only slight pain in my left. I am no longer limping and my tendons are not crackling anymore. ONE SINGLE TREATMENT!!!. I called the therapist today to ask what exactly she did and it was Scenar. I am now researching it to see what the hell it is and found your blog. I do not know what it did to me, perhaps it only deadened my nerves or something so that I don’t feel the pain. But your scam claims are reckless and totally inaccurate for people that need this therapy and can actually benefit. You are potentially robbing people of quality of life by discouraging them from trying. I happened to try it because of chance. Had I researched it first and found your blog, I may not have!!! It would have been a big mistake as this is is the ONLY thing that has actually worked for me. The rest of my sports med specialists physicians and PTs can kiss my ass because they did nothing for me but make me worse.

    I admit I am still skeptical because there has to be a catch. I have suffered too much for it to be this easy. But I am cautiously optimistic for now. We will see how long it lasts. If I have to do every week to keep walking I will. I am only one treatment in, I will check back in with a revision if the pain comes back.

      rationalbrain responded:
      April 4, 2014 at 9:17 am

      I’m glad it helped you Justin.
      If you read my pieces over the journey I have repeatedly agreed that there may be some temporary pain relief available from scenar. That is a plausible outcome from something that inserts a low level of heating into the skin and possibly joints.
      What I will not accept without further evidence are all the claims of curing disease, and I keep using diabetes as the example, because that was one of the many claims made for it. THAT is a scam.
      If you can find evidence of that, then let us know.
      In the meantime, let us know how your treatment goes – how long does the effect last etc.
      rb.

        Justin Gould said:
        April 6, 2014 at 5:52 am

        Thanks. I agree 100%. While I don’t recall any noticeable heating, I will pay more attention next time. It felt more like sporadic tiny “zaps” or “sticking” on certain areas and nothing on others. She would go over the areas that zapped until they stopped zapping. There was a huge variance between different parts of my foot. The areas that zapped were consistent, the same spot on my foot each time. Then eventually the zapping/sticking stopped. Towards the end I asked if it was turned off because I could no longer feel anything , and she said it was because it was working. Im going to ask to use it on myself next time to feel the sensation from the other side to better describe it.
        Now a few days after my first treatment I am still without pain in both feet. I’m even able to walk barefoot again. I’m ecstatic but I’m also perplexed and cautious. I’ve been researching this ‘witchcraft’ quite a bit over the last couple days and have not run across anyone claiming scenar cures any disease like “diabetes”. I will keep my eyes peeled. I had physical therapy with a new chiropractor yesterday and asked him about it. He said to keep doing it. It was not long ago that chiropractors were treated as the same “out of the box” quackery. I have a physical therapy Monday morning and a scenar Monday night.
        However, I am still dubious of the scalar wave cold laser therapy she also used on me. Since the lasers were placed elsewhere on my body and not my feet (6 of them), I can only attribute my success to the scenar. While I cannot dismiss the laser, I cannot say definitively that it helped me either. She says one makes the other work better, but call me skeptical. My gut tells me there is more BS in the laser, but at least one of them definitely works. I also have to say that it did more than deaden the nerve as I originally thought. The “clicking and snapping” in every step has been dramatically reduced. Perhaps it has something to do with inflammation. I will keep you posted.

        rationalbrain responded:
        April 6, 2014 at 7:47 am

        Re diabetes and other diseases, there are any number of sites making these claims – here is but one: http://www.21stcenturyenergymedicine.com/treatment-c20.html, look under ‘what scenar can treat’. And if you go to the Russian websites themselves, they are just choc full of these grandiose claims.
        For the record, I do consider chiropractors as quackery too. Apart from some relief for lower back pain, they do nothing else of value in my opinion, which is also backed up by the deafening lack of any decent study results.
        Basically, any therapy that relies on energy medicine, or invisible energy lines, invisible and uncharted pressure points, or chakras, or qi – call it whatever you like – is pure fantasy.
        rb

    beenie said:
    April 4, 2014 at 11:02 am

    no way have you got at this for 2 years rationalbrain!

    I found this by typing in ‘scenar’ and ‘scam’, so obviously I did wonder if this was too good to be true, I never saw claims made about it curing disease just helping to heal injuries quicker.

    I actually spoke to an infectious disease specialist once that said they use electric shocks to kill persistent infections in the bladder, some kind of cutting edge treatment. I saw this scenar device earlier today and wondered if it was the same thing.

    I think you seem to be right, logically, but unfortunately we don’t live in a perfect world where something that helps will definitely be tested. Examples include allicin from garlic, the bbc reported how a brand of allicin cream cured mrsa infected wounds, but the company can’t afford medical trials, so it doesn’t get used in hospitals. And there’s equally no chance that a pharma company (or government, suspiciously) would step in and fund a natural product to be used over any pharmaceutical. We’re living in a backwards society in many ways.

    But yeah, I do think this stuff looks pretty scammy,

    Justin Gould said:
    April 8, 2014 at 12:12 pm

    I have been all over the site you mention looking for any claims about curing diabetes, even with a site search I cannot find. I’m an IT guy but if it is there, I am missing it. But is irrelevant. I don’t know anything about energy, pi or the like, but I do know the difference between pain and no pain. I just got back from my second session with scenar and I paid very close attention this time after last weeks unexpected results.

    1st. There was no heat at all. In fact, most of the time it felt like she was rubbing a smooth piece of metal on my skin. Then in some places it felt like it stuck to my skin, and in some places is zapped the hell out of me, enough to make me jump when it hit my fingers. She had to adjust the power for my toes and fingers which is where you can really feel that it is on. Last week she treated my feet. I hobbled in and walked out with no pain in my feet and I am even able to walk barefoot without orthodics all week for first time in 5 months. The pain has not come back (if it does I promise to follow-up). This morning I had physical therapy on my calves which has been very sore all day. Once again, I went to scenar with pain and walked out with none.. NONE. And when I say none I mean NONE. I have nothing to gain and don’t care if you believe it, but I’m telling the world about this. Why is this not mainstream? Just knowing this makes me very upset with our system.

    Before you discredit my personal 1st hand experience, you yourself can test it and decide for yourself like I did… Go to a regular US medical doctor and tell them you have a bad cough. Get a 14 day Rx for Levaquin 500mg and Prednisone. If you are like the unlucky 1 in 100 (good odds) by day 9 your tendons will snap before you are done. If you are lucky like me, you will only get severe tendonosis in feet and hand and shoulder which will degenerate your tendons over the next year and stop you from doing everything you used to do. Gym, dive, hike, bike etc. You will no longer be able to walk barefoot or in sandals. Really sucks if in Florida like me. Go to orthopedic specialist after specialist and have them make you worse with more drugs and have them tell you that you “we can only treat you with tools inside the approved box” as a condolence. Join every facebook support group for fluouroquinilone toxicity (Levaquin, Cipro and Floxicin), and all the horror stories and meet people who have been disabled from all over the country by western “medicine”. THEN, when you get to the point when you can no longer grocery shop for yourself and need a scooter and envy the amputees with blades for feet and start preparing to go on disability, THEN and only then, take the scenar challenge. (you will have nothing to loose at that point.)

    I did all of the above, 5 days later I say that the best decision I ever made was to abandon the “in the box” western medicine and try something new. Even if it does not last (which I do not yet know) I would gladly give my left nut for a device that could alleviate pain like what i have just experienced with scenar. Pi? Chi, Pie? Cheese? I don’t know. I don’t care. But please don’t knock it until you try it or you are just as bad as the doctors that blindly poison and debilitate patients with “approved medicine”. Again. If there are any changes, I will let you know.
    Justin Gould
    Ft. Lauderdale FL

      rationalbrain responded:
      April 8, 2014 at 12:29 pm

      OK, check this out. I did a simple google ‘scenar diabetes’. http://ebodyfusion.com/russian-scenar-clinical-results-details-on-18255-people/
      Diabetes, as it turns out, is probably the least challenging of the claims made in this – totally unbelievable. There’s a lot of 100% cures claimed. Can you blame people for calling bullshit on this?
      And it’s not mainstream because there is NO clinical evidence to support its use – quite simple, and what I’ve been banging on about. Just like homeopathy, chiropractic, accupuncture – millions use the stuff, but they are all placebo feel-good things – there is no measurable, clinical improvement – just subjective assessments.
      But each to his own.
      rb.

        Justin Gould said:
        May 6, 2014 at 6:05 am

        It’s me again with an update. Just over a month since my first SCENAR therapy session I received when I could barely walk for several months prior because of Levaquin antibiotoc induced tendonipathy. I am now back at the gym and pain free. I’m also the proud owner of a US made device that I most happily plopped down $3800 hard earned dollars to buy after my 3rd successful professional treatment. Call it overkill since my pain never returned, but the results were too incredible not pursue and I treat myself every few days for good measure. I had to get an RX to buy it and I had to take a full day class for it. At no time did they ever make any claim whatsoever that it would cure anything, in fact, the trainers were EXTREMELY careful not to make any claim other than pain relief, even when I poked and prodded them about it. In a full day of training and reading every bit of info I could find on the actual manufactures training site, there was not a word about “energy fields, chakras etc..” It was all about blocking signals from A, B and C nerves, donating electrons and reducing inflammation etc.
        Going back to your earlier comment, you mention “low level heat”. There is no heat at all that I can notice, so I am wondering if you have actually tried it or if you are just making assumptions. I don’t doubt there are many foreign sites making BS claims. BS is everywhere (just watch FOX News for 10 minutes.) But there are also reputable companies using this technology which I believe is simply amazing. I derived this fact from personal experience, not hearsay or self-interest. When I tried to show it to my orthopedic specialist on my last followup visit, he would not even look at it. The same doc that wanted to give me a shot cortisone and pills for the pain which I refused, yet won’t listen about what worked from his patient. This is a symptom of a sick system. But I really believe you should not be so hard on it because it most definitely, without a shadow of doubt, works for pain.

        rationalbrain responded:
        May 7, 2014 at 2:18 am

        Justin, great for you. Never doubted that it could help pain, but still maintain that most of the claims out there are crap. Sorry. Testimonials like yours are fine, but until and unless there are some decent big trials I won’t be convinced. What especially bothers me is WHY there are no trials? Big pharma conspiracy? Western medicine blind to revolutionary new treatments? These are the reasons often given, which of course I don’t buy. I’m still in the placebo camp, and won’t be persuaded by individual testimonial camp. Remember, millions of people swear by homeopathy too, but that’s just crap, and trials show it. In any case, I wish you continuinig good health.

    Fiona said:
    June 12, 2014 at 9:05 pm

    Rational brain, I’m a GP and I had a patient ask me about scenar today. She is paying a therapist $44 twice a week and getting no improvement in symptoms (actually reporting worsening symptoms). A pub med search lead me to 4 articles, which had terrible study design, very small numbers and conclusions that were not backed up with any statistical significance. Also, all 4 “researchers” either sold the device or sold treatments with the device and didn’t declare it as a conflict of interest… (I had to google names to find out). I found a trial registration that sounded half decent on ANZCTR (frozen shoulder at university of Sunshine Coast) but can’t find any data or results. I thought it strange that they chose frozen shoulder (aka adhesive capsulitis) because it is a condition that self resolves with no treatment in most people given enough time…… Anyway, I’m thinking of phoning Dr Dale Lovell if I can’t find some answers soon. Have you found the results? If so, can you please post the link. Ta!

      rationalbrain responded:
      June 13, 2014 at 9:33 am

      Fiona, thanks for this – interesting that someone else is doing some research on this! As you can see from the comments, I mostly get people telling me how closed-minded I am for dismissing scenar.
      As for the trial you mentioned – I’ve just had a look at it – they seem to have been recruiting for quite a while, but it seems a reasonable design. Let’s see what the outcomes are.
      Anyway, no, I have no more results – that’s one thing I keep urging proponents to send me – but as I would expect, none are ever forthcoming.
      The only results you will find are from people who sell the therapy, and as you say, they are, without exception, worthless.
      I’m most amazed by the claims made about curing disease – as you will find on the many Russian websites. Of course, for many, the fact that this is of Russian origin is somehow a stamp of approval, and that ‘western medicine’ has some interest in suppressing it.
      Despite the bluster, there are still no results.
      One would think that if the therapy is as magical as claimed, that some testing would have been done – it wouldn’t be expensive or difficult. The clear implication is that proponents don’t want to know the answer, particularly if the cash-cow keeps on giving. It’s still SCAM for me.
      If you find anything, happy to post.
      rb.

    Joss said:
    June 26, 2014 at 7:47 pm

    Its already been explained how Scenar works but to repeat it has nothing to do with “thermal effects” as suggested by RationalBrain. Anyone who has tried it will know there is no heating involved… it is a biofeedback device and it would be a waste of sophisticated electronics to do what a microwaved wheat pack could.

    RationalBrain also states that small battery powered devices could not be powerful enough to produce significant effects… has he ever heard of a Tazer or a Cattle-prod? These small battery powered devices do not seem to lack any power.
    Of course high voltage is useless therapeutically since the body communicates in Millivolts.

    Rationalbrain seems to be asserting that any therapy not proven by clinical trials does not work, a ridiculous theory, because that would discount a lot of therapies used by doctors and surgeons every day. Everyone knows that major institutions/research facilities/grants/universities etc are set up to test surgical or chemical treatments. It is simply a matter of time before Scenar is officially recognised. In the meantime, it still works just as well.
    Think about how long it took for surgeons to figure out most knee arthroscopes did more harm then good – what 50 years?? And they are still doing them. What about all the other useless and maiming surgeries that are performed every year such as most hysterectomy’s, gall bladder removals, back operations, cesareans, tonsilectomies?? Or how about the chemotherapy and flu shot scams. Why doesn’t that anger rationalbrain more than a device that nearly everyone (who’s tried it) loves and importantly has never harmed anyone….Seems like a major bias to me, a classic case of double standards

    And on another note, if anyone wants scientific references for all the research done into acupunture just look at the back of any good acupuncture or trigger point textbook. There are thousands of studies

      rationalbrain responded:
      June 26, 2014 at 8:18 pm

      Let’s go in reverse order shall we Joss?
      Any quality studies on acupuncture show ZERO benefit, other than some minor placebo effects, which we all know is worthless. Don’t know what fantasy literature you’re looking at. The very notion of an acupuncture ‘text book’ is a laugh – as if there is any science behind it.
      Secondly, chemotherapy and flu shots are a scam? Geez. If/when you need chemo, be sure and let me know how the coffee enemas work out for you, or perhaps acupuncture?
      Flu shots have now been shown to provide a net benefit to the population. It sounds to me like you’d be a vaccine-denier as well, in which case I’m wasting my breath.
      Arthroscopes don’t do more harm than good. They just don’t do as much good as was first thought, and it also depends on what you have them for. I’ve personally had two on each leg to clean out fragments of stuff from wear and tear, so all good there. The beauty of the arthroscope issue is that, unlike acupuncture, scenar, homeopathy etc etc, the very practitioners who make a living from them did the studies and came up with the conclusions! Fancy that! Well, that’s science at work. Not your fantasy world.
      And, good grief, you believe real medical therapies are simply just used until they enter the mainstream – is that what you’re suggesting? If so, you do live in a dream world. Everything used in hospitals is assessed in great detail before being let loose on the public. What you are suggesting is laughable.
      Joss, you seem intent on tearing down whatever you can, but that doesn’t make scenar any more credible.
      Tasers and cattle prods work by storing energy in a big-ass capacitor, and releasing it in short bursts, and have a short life. So tell me how the scenar device works in those terms – over what period is the energy released, to what depth does it penetrate, and what nerves or muscles or whatever are affected? And how does the feedback part of the bio-feedback work?
      I’m betting you’ll give me some pseudo-sciencey mumbo-jumbo, but please, try to make it coherent, and also conforming with the know laws of physics would be good.
      Minor pain relief aside, Scenar is a big joke, and the ONLY proponents are those who make money out of it.
      Again I challenge you: give me evidence of any example in which a real disease has been cured by scenar as claimed. A prediction: you will give me ZIP. Or perhaps just more whining about the establishment is keeping scenar down, and how narrow minded people like me are, and how a zillion russians can’t be wrong. Whah, whah, whah!
      I’m not narrow-minded, I just know bullshit when I see it.
      So spare me your condescending tone, and let’s talk about evidence and facts.

    joss said:
    June 27, 2014 at 4:50 am

    Already provided was a list of references supporting electrotherapy as a tool for healing/regenerating bone, skin, nerves, cartilage& more but u wld not publish, feigning insult if I recall. Typing scenar or acupuncture into PubMed is not comprehensive research, it indexes very little of relevancy in many fields. If u think all those ops/meds are well proven u dont know much about medicine.
    How exactly does one make a placebo control for a surgical procedure anyway?

    joss said:
    June 27, 2014 at 5:02 am

    By the way acupuncture is mainstream in China & practiced in all hospitals. Some operations are conducted using only acupuncture as anesthesia & it achieves many cures, sometimes where nothing else does such as in cases of infantile paralysis & deaf mutism. I can assure u acupuncture text books & modern journals exist. My acupuncture textbook is thicker then my principals of internal medicine. Travell & Simmons Trigger point texts r even bigger & have 1000s of peer reviewed refs. Travell was personal GP to a number of US presidents

      rationalbrain responded:
      June 27, 2014 at 9:55 am

      Then why is it that recent high quality trials found no benefit to acupuncture… in fact ‘sham’ acupuncture was just as effective (as if the whole thing is not a sham). In fact the conclusion was the mere attention by a practitioner was just as effective.
      Your assurances, while well-meaning, and with all due respect, don’t amount to much. You may as well recommend the bible or harry potter as a source of truth. Just because someone writes a lot of words, doesn’t mean anything. It’s testing that counts, and acupuncture has failed miserably. Wishful thinking doesn’t cut it. Please review the relevant independent literature – not so-called text books.
      I recommend this analysis for a nice overview: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/acupuncture-doesnt-work/. Until you have any evidence to the contrary, then, well, acupuncture doesn’t work. Oh, and the fact that it is practiced in China is irrelevant. Millions prey to a god too, doesn’t make it true. Both activities suffer the same shortcoming – long on dogma, short on evidence.

    Bob said:
    July 2, 2014 at 8:02 pm

    I had a Scenar treatment in Lismore (Australia) this week. I’d actually booked a deep tissue massage but had this nonsense pushed upon me instead. It was a complete and utter waste of my time and my insurer’s money. The whole session I was constantly being prompted to report the improvement to my condition that I “must” be experiencing. The guy seemed genuinely disappointed when I couldn’t report feeling any difference to my state. In the end I just felt sorry for him and told him what he wanted to hear, which also hastened my exit from this fraudster’s realm. It was quite clear that he was attempting to use physcological trickery, like a fairground clairvoyant, where fault for lack of effect is placed firmly in the lap of the patient. Avoid this scam at all costs.

      rationalbrain responded:
      July 2, 2014 at 8:08 pm

      That’s an interesting story Bob. Could you elaborate on what it felt like? Any sensation at all?
      The pressure for a positive response is new angle I haven’t come across before.
      rb.

        Bob said:
        July 14, 2014 at 6:53 pm

        It felt like any other electrotherapy device, localised tingling within the tissues in the area of contact. I’ve had electrotheraphy before during physio for a broken knee and it was precisely the same. When applied at the neck it caused the shoulder to involuntarily flex up towards the ear, much like you’d expect when muscles as electrically stimulated. Then, and now, I can’t see the point.

        But the most disappointing thing about the entire session is that this scam-shop focuses heavily on Scenar for pain relief (closer inspection of their advertising pushes the pain relief aspect), but that is not the therapy I had booked and that had been promised on the phone. I wanted deep tissue massage, entire body, obstensively as part of a systemic detox regime, shifting stuff I probably shouldn’t have been imbibing towards the body’s pumps and filters for processing, metabolising and expungement. Whether that is a reasonable expectation or not is perhaps for others to judge, but that is the therapy prescribed by a qualified physician.

        Instead this device was rubbed with increasing roughness along my spine for 10 minutes. Frankly, it was scratching the skin more significantly then the electrical sensation. I was then sat up and asked to describe the changes I “would” (sic) be experiencing. I felt nothing. His face fell. So more electricity was needed, more spine rubbing, up and down. Ah, suddenly the feedback mechanism was starting to get readings now. This is a “good” sign, apparently. 10 minutes later, sat up again and prompted to describe the “improvement”. Still nothing. There was still nothing because I wasn’t there to feel better immediately, or have pain treated. He arched his eyebrows. Nothing else for but to turn it up and apply it to the neck. Shoulder hunched, as expected. Eventually he did some laying on of hands, a pincer squeeze with finger tips to the major muscle group between the ear and shoulder. Hurt like buggery but he wouldn’t relent with the pressure I’m assured and the pain would be addressed b y the Scenar treatment I’d just had, except he was very obviously reducing the pressure over the course of a couple of minutes. I know this because, well, I’m not an idiot.

        On leaving I was warned I would experience I might feel sad and depressed for a while (anything to do with my divulging I was on medication to treat depression, perhaps?). Yes, I was a little sad at being duped, but knowing my insurance company was the real victim here perked me up a lot.

        rationalbrain responded:
        July 15, 2014 at 11:27 am

        Interesting.. sounds a bit like cold-reading scams in which the subjects feel social pressure to go along with what is being suggested, and even amplify the effect.
        Kudos for recognising and resisting this pressure.

    Martin said:
    July 21, 2014 at 2:16 pm

    Just writing to support you rationalbrain. It is critical for society’s progress that people like yourself continue to defend the scientific method – it’s all we have in the pursuit of useful knowledge. Keep up the good work.

      rationalbrain responded:
      July 21, 2014 at 2:18 pm

      Thanks Martin, much appreciated.
      rb.

    Interested Dude said:
    September 17, 2014 at 1:52 am

    Hi RB, I have to disagree with you. I used Scenar therapy – and it was a revelation. A brief background. I have a severe neurological condition, leading to chronic pain. Tried a bunch of things, they didn’t work. Scenar therapy did…theres a bunch of devices out there though, don’t know if all will work, after everyone went their own way and set up competing groups but based on the same basic tech more or less. There may be devices even better than the one that they treated me with- Scenar after all is Russian, so you guys in the UK may have more access than I do. Apparently, each device varies in terms of the signal applied, power levels etc.

    The relief that folks like me get is usually sudden, we suddenly realize we are out of pain or our movements become less zombie like. At least thats what I was told. I was happily moving around, picking up stuff, acting pain free.

    Anyways long story short, I got a session, and slept without pain for the first time in days. The flipside is that these things are basically analgesic/pain relieving – they can help reduce the pain and inflammation but are not curative. I say this, because after my 10-12 sessions of the device, my symptoms returned after 3 months.

    So you have to keep going back for top up sessions or maintenance. I didn’t and in hindsight I probably screwed up. But there was also the aspect that at the time, I was in denial about how much pain I was in and didn’t want to be dependent on any device or anyone.

    Plus, unfortunately knowledge of Scenar stuff where I am located is next to abysmal. Everyone swears by TENS and TENS and ultrasound did nothing for me. I have a TENS device which I put on max and I can’t even feel the darn thing.

    The other thing is they are very expensive, which makes them prohibitively out of reach for many folks.

    Scenar devices retail for around $2-5K each :-( Otherwise I’d have purchased my own devices and tried them out further. Presumably, not all are equal..

    IMHO, scenar and energy therapies have a lot of potential, provided they are used as part of a multi modal effort, you have to use them along with lifestyle alterations & hopefully move towards a more healthy lifestyle.

    I have been through the chronic pain grind and then some. And everyday I kick myself for not having been a bit more open minded and tried stuff like acupuncture, this Scenar stuff or other stuff earlier. Might have reduced the inflammation, chronic pain to the point that my system is not so out of whack as it currently is.

    Over the past few years, thanks to my condition, I have come across folks who have restored their normal quality of life using “alternative therapies” – acupuncture per published literature has either limited effect via endorphins or placebo effect (sham accupuncture showed similar results). A few of the stories I have heard around it though are mind boggling. I’d use it extensively myself, but i have the usual monetary concerns (its not cheap) and second, logically speaking, causing extensive scarring in my tissue using needles is not something I think is sustainable for the long term.

    As to meridians and chakras – my own thinking in recent years, after doing a fair bit of reading & discussing with folks who have undergone these diverse treatments, good and bad, is that for at least a few of the more credible treatments (yoga, ayurveda, accupuncture, taichi etc) folks earlier were “on to something”, its just that they labeled it completely differently and addressed it in a different manner with the limited tools that they had at hand. They didn’t say neuropeptides are released if you exercise, they said “healing powers of the earth yada yada” etc.. Yogas powers for restorative healing are now acknowledged. I daresay a few decades back, it would be dismissed cavalierly.

    Similarly, now we are left going around with a set of rules for a method of treatment where the “why’s” are lost completely and we are left with a set of rules which we neither understand or are applied haphazardly. They may not cure or help everything, but a lot of the stuff that we do go through now must be similar to what was there earlier in terms of physical injuries. They didn’t have high power microscopes, or CAT scans or MRI scans to basically figure out what was happening. They went by their own hypothesis, x works and its because of y (which we would call something else entirely today) and results in z. Hence, y is right. So some of these ancient healing methods work for some folks, but the “why” or y, is simply not known and is often couched in esoteric stuff which makes no sense to the modern medical practitioner. The big challenge then is to differentiate between which of these modalities works & discount the placebo effect. So do Meridians and Chakras exist – perhaps they do. Perhaps they aren’t some invisible energy as the ancients thought them to be, but practically the flow of bioelectricity through some nodes which result in a variety of end outcomes depending on the different voltages, currents, frequencies etc. I do wish though more research is done on these aspects, because it can have a huge impact on the quality of life of many folks.

    Unfortunately, our system is very dependent on surgery/medicine related research. I wish equal regard was given to physiotherapy, and these sort of non medicine related modalities.

    Leave a questionnaire with all the folks who take these therapies, and put in some screening to see what worked and didn’t. Have them submit it a few months later when rationality has kicked in and not the initial euphoria of having found “something” that may work.

    Figure out a way. The Govt’s have to step up. Depending on the private sector alone, mostly drug firms, to act counter to their interests and plunk hundreds of millions on trials for stuff they can’t monetize, is a wasted effort. Its simply bad economics. Meanwhile, desperate folks are trying everything to cure their chronic pain and a lot of stuff simply doesn’t work because its not part of a protocol. I mean, if you have a broken leg, accupuncture to reduce the inflammation, conventional medical plaster to keep the bone in place, some sort of exercise program + stretching for long term care (yoga, pilates, whatever) should work. But very little seems to be oriented around such conservative therapies or is available easily.. short term stuff is not enough for long term relief..

    Its sort of pathetic really, that we can go to the moon, send satellites to mars, but all this is not a focus area.

    Best regards

      rationalbrain responded:
      September 17, 2014 at 7:49 am

      Again, glad it worked for you, and time and again I have accepted that the device may offer some mild pain relief – that much seems at least plausible. if you read my previous comments, it’s the claims for disease cure that I won’t accept without any evidence. Still a massive scam based on the outlandish claims made for it – along with all the other modalities you mentioned.

        interestedobserver said:
        September 17, 2014 at 3:23 pm

        If you dont know whether it works or not how is it a massive scam? For instance you note, “mild pain relief”- my condition is anything but mild, its chronic and very painful. The device worked brilliantly, albeit the effects were temporary (3 months give or take a few days). The other modalities i mentioned, PT, yoga, ayurveda, taichi, acupuncture are now used worldwide by painmanagement and rehabilitation professionals. James Dillard has personal experience of these multimodal treatments working if you want a western reference. Where i am located, yoga and ayurveda have a huge record of rescueing folks from RSI and other neuropathy inducing chronic conditions, plus DDD. Taichi is brilliant for those whom yoga is too strenuous. Scenar tech isnt rocket science, PR fluff apart. Its a high intensity current signal in a localized area and hence more effective than TENS. Blocking pain signals automatically releases spasms and reduces the nerve irritation induced by the spasm in turn. You can then attempt to go about your normal life for a while. It also affects a different set of nerve fibers than the usual A and B. As to why some devices worked and why some didnt in the comments above, i have no idea. Might depend on the signals and powers plus the pain conditions. Conventional ultrasound and TENs also provides some relief to so many folks. I am one of those on whom they have zilch effect. I’d suggest that if you actually want to understand these modalities and their outcomes, spend some time at pain management centers. Placebo effect apart, they do figure out what works and what doesnt, even if their own understanding of the whys is dodgy or not comprehensive.

        rationalbrain responded:
        September 17, 2014 at 4:32 pm

        It’s a massive scam if they claim it fixes disease, and they do. Zero evidence, zero plausibility. Simple.
        Yes, I accept some pain relief, but nothing else about this thing.
        There’s a lot of correspondents on this thread, right? I’ve challenged all of them to supply even basic evidence of disease cure, but none are forthcoming. Why is that?
        Simple answer is – it doesn’t work. You don’t need to be Einstein to work that out.
        Oh, and by the way – acupuncture – also no effect beyond placebo. When you can get the same effect using sham acupuncture, you know it’s all in the mind. Anything that relies on these mysterious ‘energy lines’ which no-one can see or measure or in any way detect, is also a waste of time and money. Like chiropractic.
        Yes, they are used world-wide. So what? So is homeopathy, and it’s just water. There’s a lot of wishful thinking out there.
        But I’m glad it works for you.

    Interested Dude said:
    September 17, 2014 at 2:05 am

    BTW, I read Justin’s comments above – the device I used is probably the same one he did – based on his descriptions of where its made etc. And the expense. :(
    It works..I am not mentioning the name unless you are ok with it.. I actually found out it was Scenar after searching for how it works.

      Interested Dude said:
      September 17, 2014 at 7:51 pm

      I think you need to spend some more time researching chronic pain and associated diseases before you dismiss anything that affects pain relief as not being curative. I’ll get to that later.

      Thing is you are making the same mistake I did when I approached these topics in that I looked at it with a rather binary system – absence of evidence in empirical studies = there being no efficacy whatsoever, as versus trying to find out what are the gaps in current systems of knowledge (including pubmed, nih and all sorts of associated evidence based research repositories) and then applying your own knowledge to see why something is working and why something isn’t.

      For instance, how detailed were the reports that detailed acupuncture doesn’t work? How many practitioners did they approach, from how many different countries, places and for different conditions? How did they certify that the protocol being followed was even right for the condition? I can even mail you (if you are interested) an account from a heavily injured individual for whom acupuncture worked – and with chronic pain, the placebo effect doesn’t really last.

      My only concern at this point is to determine modalities which work. Folks who have issues similar/more severe to mine, have invested considerable efforts, time and money into determining what works & documented it. In short, their results are not necessarily anecdotes but fairly thorough in their own right.

      The basic issue with several of these “alternative modalities” – and no doubt, some of them are pure bunk, in that we doubtless agree & I understand where you are coming from – is that very little serious effort has gone into studying them. The scale of effort that is required has to be massive to come up with emphatic conclusions. I don’t see that anywhere, because they have been labeled alternative, and as such, there is a serious lack of seriousness associated with them in terms of the manner in which conventional medicine views them, and in turn, the kind of quackery that infests alternative medicine centers.

      They can offer something that works – scenar, based on basic physics/electromagnetics, to telepathy or whatever. Both are then @ the same level, described the same way.

      Now the reason why I said you need to look more into chronic pain and stuff and perhaps you’ll come up with insights that can help us all, is because from my reading so far, the current state of knowledge on these aspects is abysmal but there is a common pattern to all of us folks with the issue. Our nervous/immune systems are inflamed and pain is now part of the issue itself.

      The basic thing is that pain itself causes disease in that it spikes inflammatory chemicals which in turn cause dysfunctions wherever the nervous system is able to influence any sort of body behavior or changes. So a pain response when it is unregulated and remains high, causes the central nervous system and the autonomic nervous system to go out of whack. It then tends to cause further downstream effects on many other bodily functions. In turn, the nerve disorder is linked to the immune system. (And I’ll bet you that these are linked to each other, have one it worsens the other, which worsens the former … and so forth)

      http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/15/fibromyalgia-research-breakthrough/3991063/

      Folks who have these issues then tend to make lifestyle changes which worsen their health conditions (over reliance on pain meds) etc which in turn perpetuate the dysfunctions elsewhere. Exercise itself is a medicine, releases endorphins, balances the humor so to speak, and less stress as perceived by the brain releases less stress hormones and reduces inflammation. But folks in pain cant.

      In short, for people with short term conditions, I don’t find it unrealistic at all, that they can have a lot of benefit from a device or any modality that stops the constant pain related inflammation & allows their body to partly get back in synch. Do I sell these therapies or have a protocol to follow myself? No. But I do know a few people who have managed to kick their larger issues or manage them, by first fixing the pain cycle.

      Another interesting thing… IMO, the reason why some folks who had real good results from the “integrated” approaches used in some therapies – was because the entire process was regulated, from diet to their daily lifestyle apart from whatever intrusive treatment was being used (massage, acupuncture etc). It was their chronic inflammation which was reduced. You returned to the good old stuff – stimulants (nicotine, alcohol etc) and everything went back to the high baseline. The challenge then is to figure out what works for whom and devise a protocol that addresses all aspects. Pain management by itself should become a focused discipline beyond just addressing symptoms.

      In short, I don’t find it amazing or quackery at all, that some pain management can alleviate or even assist in curing more severe disorders. The entire body is one giant network of interconnected systems – basically electric/chemical signals & the challenge is in figuring out which is influencing what.

        Interested Dude said:
        September 17, 2014 at 8:00 pm

        And I’ll have to bow out of this debate for now.. unfortunately, even typing what i did zaps enough out of me :-(
        Have a good day..

        rationalbrain responded:
        September 17, 2014 at 8:16 pm

        Sorry to hear that. All the best with what ails you.
        rb.

        rationalbrain responded:
        September 17, 2014 at 8:15 pm

        Actually I think I’ve spent quite enough time researching this – have you read how far back this goes!
        When someone shows me a study demonstrating that Scenar cured diabetes, or any disease for that matter, then let’s talk. The fact that pain relief may affect things like fibromyalgia is not surprising, since it’s essentially a nerve ending thing, which is about how deep Scenar could go, and I can therefore envisage a mechanism. But drawing any further conclusions about internal diseases is simply not appropriate.
        I don’t believe I’m making any mistake, sorry.
        For me it is binary. Show me the evidence. No evidence despite decades of testing (e.g. acupuncture, homeopathy) ? Not likely to ever be any. Therefore if you claim something in these areas, it’s a scam (or you’re deluded).
        If there are no empirical studies, how do we know that it does anything at all? Also, if there are no studies, why not? People tell me crystals heal. Homeopathy heals. Acupuncture heals. Chiropractic heals. Therapeutic touch heals. Positive thinking heals. Trouble is, they don’t. So testimonies are worthless, with all due respect to your experience.
        And by the way – you ask how detailed were the reports that acupuncture doesn’t work. Before I answer that, the question betrays your thinking on this.
        It’s not up to me or anyone to prove that it doesn’t work. We don’t treat new medications from drug companies like that do we? It’s up the proponent to say, this works and here’s evidence, and here’s the dose/application etc.
        Having said that, there have been plenty of studies, the most recent one comparing ‘real’ acupuncture, to sham, and the results are crystal clear. Read this, by someone who has studied it in more detail than me, and quotes the relevant studies: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/07/08/acupuncture-small-risks-versus-no-benefit/.
        I agree about more study required re pain relief, but I can’t agree with your ‘integrated’ approach – that is, throwing in worthless therapies with proven therapies.
        1+0 is still 1, even in binary.

        Interested Dude said:
        September 17, 2014 at 8:39 pm

        >>homeopathy

        I haven’t brought homeopathy anywhere so its a bit of a red herring

        >>For me it is binary. Show me the evidence. No evidence despite decades of testing (e.g. acupuncture, homeopathy) ? Not likely to ever be any. Therefore if you claim something in these areas, it’s a scam (or you’re deluded).

        Ad hominems don’t an argument make, “deluded” etc at this point you are again insisting on emphatics “show me the evidence”/”decades of testing” wherein I have pointed out that much of the testing is limited & will remain so until alternative medicine is taken seriously and explored likewise. i see little to no effort made in this regards:

        >>accupuncture..Having said that, there have been plenty of studies, the most recent one comparing ‘real’ acupuncture, to sham..Mr. Spurrell, who learned the ancient Chinese art on weekends at a local university,

        Seriously? thats a perfect example of what i am talking of… some fly by the night warrior trying stuff and causing a huge issue..

        >>The fact that pain relief may affect things like fibromyalgia is not surprising, since it’s essentially a nerve ending thing, which is about how deep Scenar could go, and I can therefore envisage a mechanism. But drawing any further conclusions about internal diseases is simply not appropriate. don’t believe I’m making any mistake, sorry.

        you are pretty mistaken here & as mistaken can be. nerves when irritated inflame muscle tissue, which can cause all sorts of other effects – all the way to compressing on blood vessels. blood vessels fall into cardiology. venous/lymph dysfunctions show up as pain elsewhere and put undue stress on other places.

        inflammatory chemicals when released by nerves spread. the body btw, has multiple uses for certain chemicals – you suppress one set of chemicals and you might end up with all sorts of alternate effects. know of several medicines which have online boards dedicated to their sides even tho’ FDA trials – the good kind – showed very limited sides on paper because the science thought they were linked to only one set of responses, but the body uses them for multiple reasons.

        Many diseases are “essentially nerve ending things” – I have talked/discussed the topic with multiple specialists across neurology, cardiology, rheumatism & even orthos..and they all dwell on how there are essentially two causes for chronic diseases.. one which can be addressed, one which can’t (not easily anyways)..

        one is the compressive/mechanical/trauma angle – eg fractures compressing on wounds – on nerves/causing edema and inflammation/pain.. surgery, conventional medicine addresses most of this

        second – internal dysfunction – some can be addressed on preventative (eg vaccinations for polio) … second, at the level of chronic inflammation once the issue becomes widespread… the causes become so interlinked that differential diagnosis becomes a challenge and in many cases next to impossible. addressing symptoms with medicines may cause downstream issues… FDA trials (the best there are) can’t predict effects a decade down the line.

        in short, there is a common stream running across chronic pain/diseases – and that is the central nervous system, immune system & our organs – all linked together, becoming dysfunctional.

        instead of vehemently arguing for arguments sake, spend some time on the net trawling through the experiences of folks suffering everything from recurrent rheumatism to fibro to TBI and it becomes clear what the pattern is…folks who end up going for one thing, find out something else altogether, even the medicines prescribed are the same, even the symptoms converge.

        btw fibro was also widely dismissed as being in the patients head, quackery & so forth, till its acceptance became (reluctantly) acknowledged. in that case too, skepticism crossed into dogma, till the reality became apparent..

        rationalbrain responded:
        September 18, 2014 at 8:58 am

        Sorry about that – bad wording – in my ad hom I was referring to those making claims in these areas in general. Sometimes people really believe what they are saying, so they are deluding themselves. It not really even ad hominem, just fact.
        I think it’s a cop out however to resort to the tired old argument that alt med is ‘not taken seriously’, and therefore hasn’t been studied. This is just another conspiracy theory. Practitioners have been desperate to demonstrate an effect, but with no success. No one suppresses the results – they just aren’t there. This is the case with acupuncture. Despite your dismissal – not sure where the Spurrell reference is from – some large, well controlled studies have been done recently, and no efficacy has been demonstrated. It’s fairly open and shut. Same with chiro – who even resorted to a law suit in the UK, only to be slapped down based on their non-existent evidence base.
        Look, I certainly take your point on pain and disease in some respects, but I still go back to the original claims I read for Scenar – that it will cure a whole host of diseases, once of which was diabetes. I picked this out because of the low plausibility to make a point. Until someone does some decent trials of this, and specifically cures diabetes, then this claim remains bogus, as do all the other claims.
        It’s simply not enough to say ‘diabetes is somehow related to inflammation and is internal and everything is linked, hence scenar will fix it’.
        I take exception to this being called dogma. It’s simple a search for an approximation of the truth, which I judge by seeing evidence, not on anecdotes.
        But if it works for you, as I’ve said, that’s great. You just can’t generalise. Penecillin is great, right? Well I’m allergic to it. Whose truth claim do we believe?

        interested dude said:
        September 20, 2014 at 8:05 am

        Hi RB, first off thanks for a polite and reasoned debate. Its hard on me to type so your civility and patience counts a lot.

        My point was that its not a CT to say alt med is not taken seriously.. thing is, it simply isn’t in many countries.. I am not living in the UK, so TBH haven’t followed chiro seriously. But in my country, there was and is a serious image problem associated with alternative therapy which has meant that everything is classified together as alternative therapy, science or no science as long as its not come from a reputed western mfr or is in a “conventional text”. Only then it becomes embarrassingly “mainstream”, even if there are issues with the so called research. Also, the left has been very active in my country and hence anything that belongs to any native/historical medicinal system is disparaged as non scientific and quasi-religious. They have targeted yoga and anything remotely “native” as being against “modernity” which I think is nuts.

        Of late, its slowly changing, before all the valuable stuff is totally lost. A medicinal plant may be prescribed in traditional medicine without its biological make up analyzed, purely because it has been found to work for many people but it would be decried purely because of dogma.

        Apart from my nations local eccentricities, at a wider level.
        There are two things here I think which are going on..
        One is the general ambivalence many in the public sector side have with alt therapies in general because of the shady characters peddling many of these therapies and their lack of documentation. However, some good ideas go into the dump along with them.

        From the western side, I was seeing a debate on a NIH site, wherein a credible western researcher was bemoaning the lack of investment in some modalities because of all the stigma associated with them (thanks much in fact to the non scientific claims made by some groups whom I won’t even attempt to name, who talk or claim structured water will work etc)

        Second, is the patenting + expense fact. Since I have some knowledge of this – a friend who was in medical trials noted how the medical trials he was associated with, were either very time intensive (despite big name involvement) + how expensive they were. Now, the entire issue is dominated by the pvt sector who pour in billions with the hope they can monetize a “unique molecule” or modality. Otherwise, the company fails, pure and simple.

        In alt therapies case, until & unless you have a unique delivery mechanism – if any of it falls into “prior art”, patenting becomes next to impossible and all the money you poured in goes nowhere. So I understand their challenges too and its not that they are “evil” but merely the way our system is structured.

        So, with credible large firms out of the fray, so the field is full of folks who run multilevel marketing devices without an intent to run expensive trials. Some may actually work, but there is no onus on them to conform to credible research. On the flip side, nor are the small firms assisted either so many promising ideas may be lost.

        This is the reason why I believe Govts should invest more in healthcare and preventive medicine, and even conservative treatment – PT etc and set up standardized regimens/protocols with the established basics (as we know from western medicine), exploring the popular pain mgmt etc alt medicine modalities only when there is some evidence it works or a lot of patient satisfaction from surveys etc.

        About acupuncture, the reason why I believe trials so far haven’t caught the depth of what it can (possibly) offer are the remarkable anecdotes that it has had on people with severe nerve disorders, above and beyond the usual stuff we can associate with a placebo effect. To my mind at least, it works for some people, many of whom had tried dozens of other things – perhaps their nervous system/make up is different, perhaps the practitioner was unique – but there seems to be a consistent strain of records on this at least where I am located & in the east. I see much the same with some medicines – they work on some people & the results are dramatic. Others are not at all affected. Given that chronic pain issues are severe, and conventional medicine is simply unable to cope, I have been following the outcomes of people with similar/severe issues and alternative therapies may work – provided they are not expected to deliver radical results overnight and are part of larger treatment. The main things IMO are some scientific results (are better than none),

        Chronic Pain

        http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/spotlight/091012

        Some oncology related stuff

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23104718

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23109700

        Decent summary here

        http://nccam.nih.gov/health/acupuncture/introduction

        “How much do we know about acupuncture?

        There have been extensive studies conducted on acupuncture, especially for back and neck pain, osteoarthritis/knee pain, and headache. However, researchers are only beginning to understand whether acupuncture can be helpful for various health conditions.
        What do we know about the effectiveness of acupuncture?

        Research suggests that acupuncture can help manage certain pain conditions, but evidence about its value for other health issues is uncertain.
        What do we know about the safety of acupuncture?

        Acupuncture is generally considered safe when performed by an experienced, well-trained practitioner using sterile needles. Improperly performed acupuncture can cause serious side effects.”

        Osteoarthritis

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769860/

        Tai Chi

        http://nccam.nih.gov/health/taichi

        IMO, for patients with chronic pain and for whom these can be low risk adjuncts, its worth exploring all these modalities,

        The big challenge of course is cost. Apart from concerns of safety.

        Acupuncture cost can be pretty high. Service providers can charge a lot. Thats why pain management self treatment devices can help. The one I tried is at least conservative with its online claims. Others – after we last chatted, I was doing some more reading..if you want examples of SCENAR devices marketed with no corroborating evidence and a lot of handwaving there’s tons of stuff on the net, which I agree is pretty shameful.

        If they limit themselves to pain management and conservative claims, it would lend to their credibility.

        I’ll try the device I used, more and see if it works again, lets see.

        Keep you folks updated.

    Interested Dude said:
    September 17, 2014 at 8:43 pm

    >>Sorry to hear that. All the best with what ails you.

    thanks

    Interested Dude said:
    September 17, 2014 at 8:48 pm

    btw, last on your being mistaken..was not meant as a slam on you, you are not alone in silo’ing nerve disorders from other aspects…you wouldn’t believe the challenges amongst medical professionals about “silos”, neuros dont sit with cardios dont sit with PTs dont sit with spinal specialists don’t sit with rheumatologists don’t sit with researchers… each guy only has a part of the puzzle…i can assure you that many Drs WW barely have time to consider their own specialization as part of the larger whole.. and the only “problem” is the patient who has to doggedly go from one specialist to the other..
    i have learned it the hard way.. addressing pain is critical.. it can have downstream effects and of course, as u say, risks must be minimized..

    bye

    Armando said:
    October 1, 2014 at 3:07 am

    I think the main problem is that emotions cant be tested… frequencies is the same as emotions, vibration, energy etc… that is why all the time you ask for scientific evidence and proof and that my friend is as impossible as trying to measure water with a ruler, it is just not compatible. but you do have received a lot of emotional evidence that this works, only you are not able to recognize anything that doesnt fit your scientific language.

      rationalbrain responded:
      October 1, 2014 at 9:03 am

      So, with scenar are you trying to fix emotions or physical problems? If the former, well great.
      If you claim it can fix physical problems, then it must be measurable by definition, and therefore I call for measurements.

      Unfortunately you have clearly been taken in by all the mumbo-jumbo these scam artists put out there. Vibration / energy / frequencies are NOT the same as emotions – far from it. They are all physical things which CAN be measured. We use them everyday and measure them every day. If they are being affected it MUST be measurable.

      The trouble is, any therapy that claims to work by affecting frequencies/energy etc is completely bogus, because none of these very physical things has been shown to correlate with improved health. Sure, many will tell use our bodies work with electricity. But that’s at the cellular level. Our bodies don’t have a magical frequency, or energy lines – if they did, we could measure them – but they don’t, and therefore we can’t.

      So, you can be condescending and talk about my ‘scientific language’, but you are just using guess-work and wishful-thinking.

      PS – Err, one can actually measure water with a ruler. Here’s how: Fill a cup with water. Measure the height of the cup. Multiply the height in cm by the radius of the cup squared, then by pi (22/7). Now you have the volume of water in cubic centimeters. Cool huh? Science… try it, you’ll like it!

    skymoose said:
    November 23, 2014 at 2:27 am

    No thanks, I’ll just put some AAA cells in my ears! Same thing, right?

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